The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Modern Recruiting, AI, and Talent Strategy
Welcome to The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Recruiting, AI, and Talent Strategy, a podcast for leaders building better hiring systems and stronger teams.
Hosted by James Mackey, the show features conversations with founders, CEOs, talent leaders, and recruiting experts on how great companies hire, scale, and adapt as technology changes the talent landscape.
Episodes cover talent acquisition strategy, recruiting operations, AI, automation, candidate experience, hiring analytics, and executive decision-making.
You will learn how to build scalable hiring systems, use AI and recruiting technology effectively, improve the hiring process, and make talent acquisition a competitive advantage.
Built for founders, executives, talent acquisition leaders, recruiters, and hiring teams.
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The Breakthrough Hiring Show: Modern Recruiting, AI, and Talent Strategy
EP 221: Why Generalists Win in a Fast-Changing Talent Market
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What does it actually take to grow as a talent leader when the playbook keeps changing? Chelsea Kovak, Head of Global Talent Acquisition at TaskRabbit, shares how she thinks about AI, data, tooling, and the skills recruiters need to build in a market that’s moving faster than ever. Along the way, she reflects on her path from sales to talent acquisition, the value of being a connector, and why adaptability may be the most important skill in modern recruiting.
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Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Chelsea Kovac with us. Chelsea is currently the head of global town acquisition at TaskRabbit. Chelsea, thanks for joining me today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, looking forward to this conversation. So, where are you from?
SPEAKER_00I am originally from beautiful Cleveland, Ohio, right here on Lake Erie.
SPEAKER_01Nice. That's awesome. So on Lake Erie, is that like is that a very populated area or is that less so?
SPEAKER_00It's not exactly. A lot of my friends would be like, oh, you're from Ohio, you're from Cleveland, and be like, isn't that a flyover state? I'm like, if you've ever been, because Lake Erie is beautiful, ask LeBron James. But we live actually right by the
Cleveland Roots And Curiosity
SPEAKER_00beach, and most people are just shocked that we even have a beach in Cleveland because Lake Erie's huge. So on the other side, you've got Canada. You can't see it, but feels like an ocean in the summertime.
SPEAKER_01I need to review my I need to take a look at a map sometime soon because that I was honestly I'm a little embarrassed that I'm surprised. So you're saying Canada's on the other side of the lake?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01But okay.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. Cool. I know the Great Lakes are huge, it's wild, but we love when we finally get nice weather and can actually like take our dogs to the lake. They love to go swimming and everything. It's beautiful in the summertime, but Cleveland winters, not so much. No, not exactly.
SPEAKER_01Um, so what what were you like as a kid?
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, if you ask my parents, you might get a different story. But no, I honestly I really had like a great upbringing. I, you know, grew up with my parents and my older brother in a place called Solon, Ohio, kind of a suburb of Cleveland here. And, you know, was kind of the like just happy go lucky, let me try everything type of kid. And so, you know, we all played sports, big sports household. I think it's a requirement if you live in Cleveland. You must love Cleveland sports. You cannot abandon your teams. So that is held true to today. But, you know, played softball, played volleyball, but also was kind of someone who just wanted to dabble in everything. And so on the flip side was doing music and instruments and dancing. And so I'm pretty sure in high school I was like the only, you know, varsity softball player who was running from one practice down to dancing in the gym and running routines and singing. So always, always was just kind of trying something new.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's exciting. It's like that underlying intellectual curiosity.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure do you feel like that's a contributing factor to your success and where you are today?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say that's actually a big, big piece of it. I think I was, you know, kind of told as a kid I could like be anything I wanted to when I grew up. And we talk about like entrepreneurship today, but if you think about like kids, right? My mom will tell you like I was printing flyers, like a different flyer every week, whether it was like pet walking, babysitting, snow removal, and like going around the neighborhood thinking I was gonna start a business at like age eight, probably. So, you know, I think that that definitely opens your perspective and and how that relates to like your career and especially working in talent. You get to meet so many different types of people and all those different kinds of groups that you're a part of growing up. And it really just kind of opens up the opportunity to connect with a lot of different folks from a lot of different walks of life, too.
SPEAKER_01Well, so that's the next thing I was gonna say. It's like because you're if you're hanging out in so many different groups, I mean, those are folks of different interests, different personalities, and that gives you that's a it's something maybe at an early age you don't necessarily realize as formative and really like positive, but yeah, it sort of makes sense, right? Like now you're in town acquisition and you're working with people from all sorts of different walks of life and globally, right? So like there's this different cultural dynamic too, and that probably helps set you up for success, just like just being friends and around so many different types of people.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Yeah, it's really interesting because like you even think about when you meet a new hiring manager, you start a new job, or you're talking to a new candidate, like having such a broad set of experiences just allows you that opportunity to be like, oh yeah, I know something about that, or I know a lot about this. And I think it just builds really strong relationships and allows someone to be really adaptable, which, as we both know, especially working in like, you know, startups, high growth companies, staying adaptable to any situation, any conversation, any person is so necessary to success.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, for sure. But you were also highly competitive. And it sounds like at times with your brother, right? You have an older brother, if not mistaken.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So my brother's three years older than me. And, you know, it it was always a competition. I could tell you stories for days about it, but even from like the sports lens, like especially having older siblings. I always had like my older brother, my older cousins, my older friends in the neighborhood. And so I felt like I was always trying to keep up and like prove myself. And there's there's a lot of really famous photos in our family, but my favorite one was on my 13th birthday. I was supposed to have friends over, and my brother came home from football practice, still like fully geared up and all of his equipment, his helmet was on, and he launched a football and it just drilled me in the back of the head. And I got so mad. So I like ran out in the yard, tackled him, and my mom was like, Don't move. This is the best photo op. So there's just like me and pigtails tackling my brother in like full football gear. That's awesome. And that is definitely the theme of you know, kind of how it was growing up in that household with an older brother, too.
SPEAKER_01Can you like email me that photo or something? Because that that sounds freaking hilarious.
SPEAKER_00So that will definitely happen.
SPEAKER_01So you want to hear something super random and and sort of like just just incredibly random. So on on the on the episode that we literally just produced yesterday, um, we had uh Jessica Wheeler on the show, and Jessica was head of TA over at Hulu Activision and now Take Two, which like runs a few uh record labels. Um and she was talking about the company that she worked for before Hulu, and the chief people officer she reported into threw a bagel at her head. I'm not kidding, you can't make this shit up. And so it's just funny because like now, two this is obviously a lot more innocent and like uh more appropriate, like, but it's just funny because we have two episodes in a row where somebody's been hit in the head with some kind of object that you should not be in the head with, ideally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you gotta have you know thick skin and a thick skull, I guess, to work in talent.
SPEAKER_01I guess so. Like, I hope this isn't a common theme. We start to see it more cross like cross-board talent leaders, like, yeah, I got hit in the head. Yeah. That's funny. That is too funny. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so like one of the things, themes that we talked about in terms of just how you see yourself in terms of your identity growing up is like sort of this like jack of all traits. Yeah. And and that continued, right? Like as you went into college, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I actually so I ended up going to Ohio University here in Ohio, obviously. Uh good old Athens, Ohio. I remember people would be like, Ohio State, and be like, no. And they'd be like, Miami of Ohio, nope, we're the Bobcats, we're the party school, not the football school or the really good school on the other side. But um, but we did have something really special at Ohio University. And, you know, to backtrack a little bit, I always thought I would end up in sales, actually. And so my dad was a VP of sales for Fortune 500 company and just had a really stellar career in kind of more like, you know, older industries like HVAC, energy services. And so by the time I got to OU, I really, you know, kind of looked for ways to hone my sales skills,
Early Competitiveness And Being A Connector
SPEAKER_00but it wasn't exactly something that was being taught in school. And so luckily we had the Ralph and Lucy Shea Sales Center at Ohio University. And it was very competitive. You got into like interview to get in and everything. And I'm pretty sure you couldn't even apply as like a freshman because it was very limited. So once I got in my sophomore year, then leveled up to like the vice president on the student council by junior year, president by senior year of college. And it essentially gave you like a minor in sales plus all of these opportunities to access the corporate world while still in college. And so it was essentially like a privately funded group. And you would you would have like corporate partners that basically paid to recruit out of this program specific to sales. And so we were taught like spin selling, you know, sales force and all these things in college. And um, I ended up doing like three sales internships in college through this program. The last one between my junior and senior year brought me out to San Francisco. And that's actually what started my career in software sales out in San Francisco after college, too. And so, you know, I went to college like undecided on my major, ended up doing like, you know, organizational communications, business minor, but the sales program really defined a lot for me and opened so many doors to like mentors who really helped coach me along the way. And, you know, it was kind of giving you that like real world kind of life experience while still in college, which a lot of folks don't get. And I think that allowed me to accelerate my career in in ways that maybe I wouldn't have if I didn't have that experience too.
SPEAKER_01Well, sure. I mean, your first sales job was at Marketo, right? Yeah. And they were they were growing like wildfire back when you were there.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. It was it was a really, really crazy time. And it was funny because I had done a sales internship at a different company and thought I would like end up going to work for them. But one of the um women who worked in marketing actually transitioned to Marketo. And so she made the introduction. And pretty sure, if I'm not mistaken, I had like confirmed my July start date, like back right around like the holidays of my senior year. So like it was it was just a really when I look back at it, it's like incredible to have that opportunity. You know, someone who's never lived outside of Ohio gets to go to California and all these things. It was such an incredible experience and you know, definitely a lot of learnings from starting in software sales. You talked to my dad, our sales worlds were completely different. And I thought sales would look like his world, where you're like traveling, going to meet customers in person. And with how things were evolving, you know, since he started in his career. And by the time I became like an SDR at Marketo, it was all, you know, phone calls behind the desk, all from your computer. It was completely different. Yeah. And it's like call, call, call, call, call. And I guess, you know, you could call me a little bit of a challenger, too. Where I remember one example from my SDR days was like, I had a client and they're like, Why do I need to speak to an account executive? And I was like, it's part of our process, but I didn't agree with that process because I could go deeper with them at that point based on my experience. And I'll never forget it because I was like, Well, why can't I just get promoted to account executive? I don't understand. And I was like six months into my career. I was like, if we're doing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, that's I mean, that's uh I don't know. I that's uh I think very common for folks when I was starting out. I um what you know, when we everybody starts out. I mean, my um I I have a very junior GTM staff we'll talk about later, but it was funny for like three months here, everybody's like, What are we getting promoted? Like you've been here like like 80 hours, like I know, like literally just relax. Yeah, but but yeah, you know, it's funny. Uh so I started off as an SDR too. Uh I started off the K force, like publicly traded staff.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they were gonna bring me, I was on an intern and they were gonna give me an opportunity to come on board, but they were and I wanted the accounting executive role like from the start because they actually didn't have an SDR like function. Yeah. So like this like in hindsight, this just comes across as so like I don't know, arrogance the right word, but just that because I wasn't. It was yeah, just kind of you know, I don't know, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. But like I I yeah, so I was I they were like, hey, we're gonna create an SDR role for you, and it's synchro swim. Like, we don't think you're gonna make it as an AE off the top, but we're gonna give you six months, and you either make it as SDR, we either fire you, we promote you. Yeah, and and uh they were very transparent, but I was like, okay, I'll take the shot. But like I literally told this VP who was willing to create the SDR role for me, I don't want it, I want the AE role. He was just like he was so mad. He was just like, I love that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I had like a similar yeah, I I totally had a similar experience even like after my first job, because I did, you know, kind of the SDR track, and then it was uh Clear Slide actually. The VP of sales there was the one who kind of unlocked the key for me getting to an AE slot. And I basically was invited by a friend of mine who was working at ClearSlide at the time. She's like, come to this like recruiting event, just meet the recruiter. You know, I wasn't looking at the time. And the like recruiter at the time wanted me to come over as an SDR. And she's like, Let me introduce you to Mark, our VP of sales, who like to this day I adore, I adore him. He was so fantastic. He was he he knew a lot about me that I didn't know about me yet, kind of thing. And you know, told me he's like, You're a shark who doesn't want to hunt, but you get you catch, you know, you catch one, you can close them all day long. But it was a lot of learnings for me. And he was the first one to give me an account executive role. He looked at the recruiter while we were talking and we maybe spoke for like 10 minutes, and he goes, No SDR for her, account executive, and put me on the interview track, like right at that event. And I was like, Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Right. Somebody gets it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You ultimately did kind of make the transition to talent. I I'm curious, um, like what do you what really like when you're starting in college, like what really appealed to you about sales? Was it more so like following in your dad's footsteps, or was there something about it or your personality that like uh pulled you into that initially?
SPEAKER_00That's a really, really great question. I think it was probably a combination of things. I'd say, you know, number one, my dad was like, you know, he's the fun guy. We go to sports games, I watch how he interacts. We're like basically the same person from like a personality standpoint. So I was, you know, watching him continue his success in his career. And I think the other piece, you know, kind of does speak to like the generalist part too, of like, I like learning people's stories. I liked meeting new people all the time, having new experiences. But I've always been someone who also really leans into like wanting to help people. And so originally I thought, you know, sales was a way to do that. It was a way to take a product or a service, bring it to folks who needed it, and really like help make that match happen to further everything. And in one of my um sales internships, my first sales internship was in at paychecks, actually. And I'll never forget the regional like director of sales there. She's like, you know what you are? You're a connector. And it was essentially like no matter what someone was talking about, I was like, oh, I should connect you to this person or I should connect you to that person. And so I saw that as what I thought sales was. And I think, you know, I was definitely surprised when I got into sales because I didn't actually feel that way. I was like so excited, so ready to like go crush it. And I was like, I actually don't always feel great about being in sales because I felt like I was simply trying to like hit a number and you know, having to constantly like prove myself through my numbers versus actually like doing good things for other people. And I think that's where like talent has been such an awakening for me when I kind of kind of finally made that transition because I was doing good for two people by connecting them. And it finally kind of tied together like what I was good at, why I thought sales was the right path, but then realized that talent was actually probably the better path for me. And so lots of learnings as I got into sales and what kind of helped me transition into finding recruiting as well.
Learning Sales The Structured Way
SPEAKER_01That's really cool. And so you worked at Fundera for a little bit, which is interesting because uh I was telling you that was actually we so there's a lot of like we kind of worked at adjacent places like several times throughout our career, which is really cool. Uh closer IQ is at the time when you worked at uh 2017 was a competitor to Secure Vision. We were also a contingent agency at the time, right before we transitioned to embedded recruiting. And so there's some overlap there. And then Fundera uh is a customer, they were acquired by NerdWallet, yeah, now a customer of mine, and then we work so Secure Vision. That was my RPO's firms, their second customer. And oh wow, they were like, so I we worked uh the VP of sales at Grubhub went over there. Uh, and Grubhub was my first customer. And he just calls me. He's like went into like this chief growth officer officer role's name is uh Nick Roldwick. And uh I don't know if you ever worked with Nick.
SPEAKER_00I did a couple of times, yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right, so so I knew Nick, he just gives me a call. He's like, Hey, I'm I'm working for this company, you probably haven't heard of it, but it's gonna be huge, right? Like it was like right before, like you know, the things just you know took off in that crazy way. But um, I'm curious, so you were you were in the headquarter location. So I know I was there while you were there, like I was there meeting with Nick.
SPEAKER_00So we we probably met like 10 times throughout our career and don't even know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we don't even know. But what was it? I'm just curious, like the internal perspective, what was it like working at WeWork? Oh that was that was before the the Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I left kind of before all the things happened, but um no, honestly, so I was at WeWork like really only for about a year. And I will say that was certainly one of the more like exciting, defining kind of moments in my like individual contributor kind of track in my career. And part of the reason why I went there was because they were at a stage where they had grown grown up quite a bit. And so it was like an opportunity to learn from a global team, a large team within recruiting versus being like the sole recruiters somewhere or building things from the ground up. And so I saw it as an opportunity to really like grow in my career. And I worked primarily on like the enterprise sales side. And so, um, but what I will say about WeWork is like they had something so special to like the culture. I mean, working in the headquarters, it's like working in a beehive. I mean, it was just buzzing all the time. And you get to meet so many different people from so many different walks of lives, which we've already talked about is like one of my favorite things. But you know, I'd I'd be in an elevator with Adam Newman. Like it was just so wild to me at that point in my career that I was even getting that type of like exposure essentially. But um, it was such a fun place to work. I mean, you would make friends with people from every different floor of the building, every different function across the business. And that culture was just like you I still can't replicate that if I tried, probably.
SPEAKER_01No, no. I mean, like, I like despite everything that happened, like, I mean, the culture that we worked built was truly incredible. And I haven't experienced anything like it either since then. Right. It was just like the energy going into headquarters. Like, I remember, and you know, this was like early days of me still being I I started working with them, I think even earlier than when you started working there. Uh yeah, and I mean I was still like a little bit newer to tech because I came from K4, so a little more old school. Like we wore it, we had to wear a suit and tie in the summer, like doing like this visits, like that kind of vibe, right? Uh and it was just funny because I I definitely went to we work like overdressed because I was still in like my like thinking that like you know, I had to like put my like big boy like jacket on, and yeah, you know, and I just show up and like Nick is just wearing like a t-shirt, he's got like a poster of like biggie smalls in his office, and I'm just like, this is like I was like, what's what is this magical place? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, this is this is cool, this is this is fun, but um yeah, well, yeah, that's that's funny.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's I mean that the the other thing that I will say is like that network of folks from We Work has not gone away, no matter how distributed we all are. Like, I've talked to folks left and right over the years since leaving WeWork, and we're all at different companies, but that's kind of the fun part too, is like, you know, who do I know at all these other companies now? And how can I help make introductions? And where did everyone land? It's just a really fascinating like network to take with you too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's like been a few times throughout my career where that that's been the case. Grubhub was a big one, yeah. Um, like the nerdwallet, our nerdwallet customer. He uh he I started working with him at Grubhub. Uh and that's what brought WeWork. Uh WeWork was one of them. Um there's a few companies where it's like over the years, right? Where you're just like something special at that moment in time. And I don't know if these companies still have it, frankly. I don't know. I know, but uh I just don't know. But at the time, it's like this moment in time you just can't like you know, it was like it felt special.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I totally agree with you on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's awesome. Well, so like you know, another theme here is like you talk a lot about, you know, like kid jack of all trades, being the connector, and also taking pretty big risks in your career, right? I mean, you made a pivot going from sales into talent acquisition. You ended up at capsule. Yeah. I mean, I like what would what was that like, right? Because that's the where it seems like things started to accelerate for you. Came on lead business recruiter, got promoted in seven months town acquisition manager, got promoted in six months to director. Um, that must have been a pretty impactful experience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say capsule was definitely like a really big, big kind of turning point for me and kind of maturing in my career, and also just like really accelerated learnings. And I think, you know, there's always kind of this point. I I was joking with someone the other day. I was like, when you get to kind of like the like 15 years of your career, it's like this weird spot. Where sometimes you feel too junior, sometimes you feel too senior for the work you're doing. You're like in this weird kind of like medium place. And I
From SDR Grind To Recruiting Purpose
SPEAKER_00think, you know, capsule for me was kind of like, I finally had the confidence. And luckily, you know, Darren, who hired me, who was awesome, he had the confidence in me as well to really come in and help them, you know, define the personas for like their general managers alongside the executive team for their national expansion plans. And what was really unique about starting a capsule, I actually will never forget this. I was like, oh, I'm walking distance to the office. This is going to be so great. And then the pandemic hit. And I was living in Manhattan, you know, it would have been like a five-minute walk. And I never actually got to work in the office there because of the pandemic. And so ended up going remote for also the first time in my career. And so that kind of like three years stint there with so many different learnings. But really, you know, what I think was interesting is that because we were a prescription delivery company as well, the pandemic accelerated our growth like wild, wild amounts. And so we had to move probably at a faster clip than most other companies who were trying to figure out how to manage it. We were growing very quickly and becoming a very relevant business. And so what was really great about it, number one, I got a lot of exposure to working with like Eric, the CEO, our CFO, CRO, chief people officer, and really got a chance to test myself essentially and kind of that like lead-level recruiter. And once we kind of got past hiring like the first, you know, 10 general managers across all these different markets in the US, then the team was growing too. And so there was a need for more kind of managerial level of experience on the team. And so as I started growing, you also see your scope grow. And so we then brought in our VP of talent, Andrea Amy, who's now over at AG1. And I'm still very good friends with her. She has taught me so much. She came from like Amazon. And I had never worked at such a large, kind of structured organization. And so I'd say she also really helped me in kind of a leadership capacity, understand how do you bring data to the table to actually like communicate to the business in ways that they'll understand what's happening with intel and acquisition? How do we think about a lot of these different metrics? And um, essentially, I was kind of like a fixer for a while too, I would say, of like, where is the problem area today and how do we solve for it? And that's a really fun thing for me in any career, any opportunity that I've had is like I like to solve things. I like to fix things, I like to break things and then fix them. But, you know, it was like, okay, how do we take care of time to fill on more of our technical hiring or how do we think about costs per hire for a really, you know, our courier hiring on more of the operation side of our business? And so it was also obviously an opportunity to really learn from a very strong executive team of how to level up in terms of executive presence, in terms of how I manage my teams, managing managers was a different experience, let alone just managing a team. And we had probably about 20 plus recruiters on the team at any given point while I was there. It was an incredible learning experience. And I think I've taken a lot of what I, you know, got to learn there into my role here at TaskRabbit today, too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, as as we're going through our episode, I'm always like, I'm like looking at your profile. And I pulled up Andrea, she wrote you a recommendation, so I'm always looking at notes and stuff. Yeah. Uh, but um, man, she speaks incredibly highly of you. Thank you. She wrote you a recommendation. Chelsea quickly became my right hand at capsule and became a guru in recruiting data analytics and telling a story and talent acquisition that influences change. She delivers results and is a strong executor. The X factor for Chelsea is she's a strong relationship builder and key stay uh was to key stakeholders. That's like that's an incredible recommendation. So that's that's pretty cool. And it really speaks to, I mean, it kind of adds up with how quickly you've progressed throughout your career. So that's that's really cool that you have that uh recommendation from her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I'm like, you know, forever grateful for everything she taught me, and she still teaches me a ton. Like when I get stuck on something like I gotta call Andrea, but um, she's she's been such an incredible influence. And I think it also speaks volumes about like, you know, she's she's the manager that I want to be for others. Like I went into management because I didn't feel that I had like the best support and the best managers who are developing me along the way in my career. And I want to be that for others too. And so to see that kind of modeled for you, I think those are like really game-changing people in your career versus just like the company, the opportunity, the scope of your role that folks need to collect along the way in order to continue to advance.
SPEAKER_01I 100% agree. I'm like, I feel like it's so important to always like remember those folks and to always be there for them too in return. Yeah. Um it's special. It's really special. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I I think I always appreciate people, like the older I get, the more it's like I really do care. And like there's this like level of gratitude, right, toward people that help you get where you are. And you know, and then we want to be that's true. Yeah, we want to be that for others.
SPEAKER_00Even with like even with managers that like maybe they weren't the best manager for me, it doesn't mean that they weren't the best manager for others. And like as I get older, I look back at those and I'm like, thank you for like teaching me how to figure things out on my own, or you know, make me be more resourceful if I didn't have the right manager at the right time to help develop me. And so I think that's also a piece of kind of accelerating my career is like being a fast learner and being willing to continue to learn is like a huge component here because there's no one's coming to save you. It's kind of like that whole quote in life. But it's kind of true in your career too. Unless you're carving out time for your own growth and development and take risks and actually like fail at things, you're not going to excel if you stay in kind of that comfort zone. And I think even managers who don't feel like the right manager can also, even unintentionally or indirectly kind of push you in that direction in your career if you're that type of thinker too.
SPEAKER_01You can learn from everyone, right? Totally. You can learn from everyone. And it's like even from a someone who's maybe not a great manager, even if they're a bad manager, it's like you can you can learn what not to do, but you can also learn some stuff to do. They probably did something, right? Like that some everybody knows like you know, has a strength, maybe some more than others, but like you know, there's always things like when you're really reflective, if you're open to learning, right? It's it's I I think that that like so this right here is probably the most common trait amongst the folks on the show is intellectual curiosity, a just a strong desire to learn. It's like a magnet is pulling them toward absorbing new information. Yeah, that's what I could put it. Um they they're not believe it or not, and I've had a lot of executives on the show, they're not arrogant people, they're curious people who are open to feedback, willing to fail, and and willing to do what it takes to level up. Like there's yeah, openness to whatever it takes. I want to be the best version of myself, right? 100%. That's that's probably the one underlying theme ever after like interviewing a couple hundred people on this show.
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, that's yeah, totally agree. It's it's definitely, you know, continue to learn. And it's hard to find the time, honestly. Like, you know, I'll find myself at like 7, 8 p.m. just like toying around on my laptop trying to figure something out, right? And like you've got to have have that motivation too. And you know, it's also I it's interesting because we have conversations sometimes with like our HR team as well. And like sometimes you do want the folks who are just kind of like good where they're at, but you need to have like a blend of others in the room as well. And I don't know if that's an unpopular opinion or a popular opinion, but sometimes you just need folks who are gonna do the work of the role. But I think if you want to be in like, you know, leadership roles, if you're not pushing the limit, trying to stay on top of trends, trying to learn AI, do all these things, you know, you will fall behind. And so it's a lot of work, but it's worth it, is the thing.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I think you need both to that point. Like you need folks that they've kind of identified what they're good at, and they just there's different types of people. Like, there's some people it's like they're gonna learn something and find what they're good at, and they're just gonna execute on that for many years, and they're gonna continue to get better. But then there's the type of people where it's like I feel like I'm either moving forward or backward. I I can't like I I would fail straight up and probably even a junior to mid-level position if I was doing the same thing consistently. I just can't psychologically stay engaged, and it's very challenging. And because immediately I would start trying to solve things and optimize and scale, and just it would not, it would it's very, very challenging for me to like stay in place.
SPEAKER_00Like so with you on that. And I think that's the other thing is like every role that I've taken in my career had something that I hadn't done before, and that was like the exciting piece of making those moves was like, Well, I believe I can do it, so let's try it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. I think, yeah, another way to look at what you said is like sometimes when we're hiring, it's like we want people who have done a hundred percent of the job, depending on the role. Sometimes we want people who've done 70% of the job, right? Like, I don't want a CFO who's only done 70% of the job personally. Like, I want you know, like I want them to know all of this stuff. But you know, for for a lot of people, it's like, okay, I want the 70%'s the foundation, the 30% is you know, why they're taking the job. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_00It's yeah, it is really interesting. It's an interesting conversation when you try and say that to hiring managers about their own roles, but we get it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not everybody, not everybody gets it. But I think it's like why maybe they don't get it is that there's so much nuance, and hiring is so situational, and it's hard to have these like hard and fast rules
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SPEAKER_01of this is always and and in every company it's gonna be different in different stages of growth of companies, it's gonna be different. Like there has to be this like constant like recalibration. I feel like 100%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been really interesting. It's been really interesting to try and change some of those, like you know, philosophies and how we operate within a business and everything, and and really help, you know, teams understand that as well. Of like, you know, what does great look like in an interview versus what is great look like if they've been here for six months and like where are those gaps? I think one one theme that I talk to a lot about, um, depending on like the level of hire, is a lot of folks have kind of like the same process everywhere, but it's definitely an interesting lens when you're like talking about coachability. This is like something that's very hard for folks to measure. And that's something I've been leaning in a lot with teams, is like how coachable is this person versus have they done a hundred percent of what you're actually looking for them to do? And how does that kind of differentiate like one candidate from the next too? And so there's a lot of these like softer skills that I think a lot of teams forget to like test for in that regard of how quickly can this person learn and adapt versus like are they just gonna come in here and do the work that we need them to do.
SPEAKER_01How do you push teams to think differently in terms of the hiring philosophy like in application, right? When you're when you're working with different leaders across Task Rabbit or any of the other organizations you've worked for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you know, there's there's kind of a a saying that I have with my team, I joke it goes back to like preschool and first grade when it's like the show don't tell part of your class where you like bring something you have to like describe. It's a really interesting philosophy that I use. But essentially what it means in the world of talent and our hiring managers is that right now we focus a lot on our data because if we can actually, you know, bring data to the table, you really can't refute data. But what we do on top of that is layer in kind of the storytelling portion to essentially position the data in a way that influences change with the hiring team. So, you know, an example of that would be like we had a role recently and we had like six folks get to like this coding exercise and everyone was failing. And so when you have to like diagnose that problem, you're looking at pass-through rates, but then you've got to kind of pair like, you know, the actual like qualitative and quantitative data to come back to a team and say, let's diagnose the problem together. Here's what we're seeing, here's your options that we could kind of try to tweak this process to move faster. And I think the use of like data and storytelling with hiring teams is what actually makes it click for them versus like, you know, just telling them like, hey, why aren't we getting these folks through? Or what's the problem with the coding exercise? You can't just point to one thing without having the data to support it. And so that's something that we've been really actively working to kind of pull on those strings with the data first, come back to the teams and try and influence it with the storytelling on top of it, because you know, most folks don't know what like a recruiter is doing every single day, day in, day out. They don't like sit with us, they don't know how many calls we're on per day, they don't know the back and forth with candidates. And so we have to use the information that's kind of gonna make sense to the business versus using only like talent acquisition data or you know, our ways of thinking about it, talking about it and our own intuition. We know that, but the business doesn't know that. So we've got to really position it in a way that they'll understand it to actually drive change in a process or you know, a profile or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we um I was actually just talking with one of my recruiters uh in the RPO business who's having trouble with a customer. He did the math and he was like, I'm doing I'm spending all of this time. Well, sorry, he we did the math first. He went, I'm spending all this time scheduling. I'm just spending a ton of time scheduling. I don't have time to do anything. I don't feel like I'm not like even a recruiter. Yes. I'm like, okay, well, like how much time are you spending scheduling like a week? And he was and we did the math, and it was like roughly like literally 10 to 15 hours, like nuts, right? Because close to 15. I was like, okay, so let's let's quantify that. What what are like what activity metrics if you weren't doing that would you be able to hit in terms of like out the strategic sourcing and screening relevant talent and and and then also like you know spending time close to offer these types of things? It's like, well, all right, so ideally I'd be doing XYZ numbers, and it's like, okay, so like roughly 40% of your time is going towards scheduling. So that means that what your activity metrics, I'm assuming, are roughly 40% less. He's like, Well, yeah, I'm trying to make up for it and do more, but you know, yeah, essentially I'm sending out like uh 25-30% fewer messages, and I don't, I don't, I'm not as high as responsi I just don't, it's like hard for me to be as responsive. And so it's like, okay, and then by cutting down on those messages and your screens, uh, how much do you feel like that's probably impacting our time to fill?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? And so it's like, well, we've had this one roll open for you know seven weeks because I don't have enough time to build pipeline. And like, okay. So that's what we bring to the to the executives, right? It's it's it's hey, our time to fill is extended by three or four weeks because of XYZ problem. And here is the the solutions that we can put in place versus hey, I I I'm having a hard time finding time on people's schedule. Like that there's a totally different yes, you know, like totally.
SPEAKER_00It is so that resonates so much. And I think actually one of the things that's been, I think, a challenge for like my teams is like how we actually can make sense of like where our time goes. I think that is actually something I've talked to other like even other talent leaders, other recruiters about. But it's like, I know I'm spending intuitively, I know I'm spending like all this time on scheduling, but to actually do the deep work of assessing that and actually quantifying it, understanding like where am I spending time on scheduling? You know, how do I actually think about like other activities that I could be spending my time on? And the one thing I'll say is like recruiters aren't really taught this stuff along the way unless you're like lucky and you start with like an incredible like leader who's kind of teaching you like how to use your data from day one forward. And it's different on how we use it as recruiters versus how we use data to position, you know, influencing the business too. They're different things. And so it has been such a journey, probably over the last like five, six years of my career, to really dig into this like data, data and analytics piece and bringing insights back to actually drive change. And I would say for anyone who's either like moving into leadership or even any individual contributor who's a recruiter right now, like learning that data skill set and how to actually take messy data, make sense of it, bring those insights into an actual like storytelling conversation, that is probably one of the biggest pieces of the last few years of my career that have helped me accelerate in in my learning and how I show up to the business and how I lead my teams. Now we're in the world of AI too. And it's like AI is, you know, great and it helps me build all my dashboards, but it's only as strong as if the data integrity is there too. And so keeping your systems clean, keeping track of your data on a regular basis actually helps you keep cleaner data too. And so if you can kind of build that into your day-to-day as a talent leader or recruiter, I think that's like the game-changing mode and where everything has shifted already, but is continuing to like drive even further in that direction.
SPEAKER_01What's your obsession for 2026?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say we're talking about it. But um, well, the joke in my household is that my boyfriend would like me to talk to him more in 2026 versus all my AI tools like Claude. And so that's like, you know, priority number one. But no, just kidding, kind of. But um, my obsession in 2026 is there's kind of the data piece and the AI piece. I mean, everyone's talking about it. And, you know, essentially I'm digging in right now to really figure out how I can use AI, you know, for my own personal like organization and prioritization. And um, you know, it takes a lot of work to try and teach ourselves these things, but it feels like everything around us is moving so quickly, you would just have to find the time to do it right now. Otherwise, we're all gonna fall behind. And so where I'm at right now is really looking at a few things. So, number one is like the tech stack within talent. I think that this is a huge conversation. If you're on LinkedIn and you have anyone in talent in your network, you're seeing what are the top tools? What are the combination of tools? Who's using this tool? And so that is obviously a very big focus. And, you know, we can dive in there more of kind of what we're doing here at Task Rabbit to use tools to solve for some of our challenges and opportunity areas. But then it leans into like the data and the AI piece as well. How clean is my data? What are we tracking? Are these metrics actually the right metrics to be tracking based on the outputs that we're hoping for? But I think the data and the AI piece here is like AI to me is the tool that you know I'm putting all my data into to make sense of, to then build better content, better dashboards, all these things. But I'm also really challenging my team to use AI for their own assessment to level up in their careers as well. Because again, to that point, if recruiters are not taught the data piece, it doesn't mean that they're a bad recruiter. It means that they could be a really great recruiter and they could be even more dangerous if they had this skill. And so as a leader, I'm also like really making that a mandate for my team of like, take your pass-through rate report, feed it to Claude, take your activity report, feed it to Claude, make sense of it, like make it make sense for you first. And then let's talk about how to level up to now how do we use this to share back with hiring managers? And so I think there's like a few different ways that we're looking at it for operational efficiency, leveling up my team and also leveling up myself in the areas that I know I'm weakest at, but I know that this can help elevate that. So I'd say, you know, long-winded answer to 2026, but it all has to do with like tools, data, and AI.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think talking about data is actually it's um everybody it's AI, AI, AI, but really AI is only gonna be as effective as like the data is clean and accurate. Um so that's how I see it. Just in my head, the way that I think about 2026 is how to orchestrate human data and AI appropriately to drive hiring outcomes. And then from a marketing lens, I took out the word data and our content, I mean, because it's people just want to hear AI. So we just but really it's like in my head, I'm thinking human data, AI, optimizing those three motions. You I you really can't have one work without the others. Um and so I I do actually think about it in those three pillars, um, which just for me just helps me make sense of it. Yeah. Um so so let's let's talk about tooling a little bit. For those tuning in, Chelsea and I are actually gonna be working together at Task Rabbit. Um, my startup, June, does AI screening and interviewing, and we're gonna be working with with TaskRabbit to help alleviate the top of funnel bottleneck from inbound applications. So I'm curious, is and actually I don't I don't know this, is is June the first AI solution you're incorporating into your tech stack, or what use cases have you used thus far?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, great question. So it is the first first one, and we're super excited about it because essentially we've gone through this period of time where and I think a lot of talent teams where we are operating with a very, very lean function right now to support all hiring globally across the business. And, you know, that varies from hiring like head of type of talent within your tech functions all the way to like, you know, remote customer support in Poland. And so when we kind of looked at things, we really had to assess which buckets were actually
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SPEAKER_00causing the bottleneck for our team. And I think this is probably a common theme for a lot of folks, but we're still operating with really high volume of applicants across our roles. And I think especially for a brand. Like TaskRabbit, that folks already know. When folks see a role pop up, they are just like submitting their resumes left and right. And, you know, it's interesting because now we're also dealing with AI on the candidate side, where we are very clearly seeing some of that influx of resumes because all these AI bots that are applying on behalf of candidates. And so we were talking about the other day, like we have a financial analyst role open, but we're getting all these like data analysts, biz ops analysts, because I think these bots are also just reading like analysts and submitting their resume without even that candidate probably knowing that they're like applying to the role too. And so it's a really interesting landscape. But when we kind of carved out what's the bottleneck for our team, it was definitely like, you know, the top of funnel. We one recruiter cannot sort through a thousand applications in a week, you know? So depending on the role, depending on how much volume we're getting, that's been clearly a bottleneck because we're trying to move with speed, but we're also trying to move with quality candidates. And so using a tool like June is going to help us unlock ways to really identify and kind of stack rank those candidates against our own, like, you know, ICPs and the criteria that we need. But then taking it a step further, one of the other challenges that we are we struggle with at the top of funnel is that we have we are operating in a hybrid model and we're pretty much primarily hiring out of like one market in the US. And so when that happens, we have so many applicants that say on the application question, yes, I'm in this location, yes, I can be in office, but then we look and they're actually like in Texas or in Arizona. And so my team is now kind of burning, we found out that we're burning time on applicants that either don't meet the criteria, you know, even things like visa sponsorship and work authorization, like it's a yes or no kind of question, right? And so that doesn't really filter it down. And we feel that using something like June is going to help us really kind of pull out the needle in the haystack a little bit easier and really identify like who in this bucket is actually the right fit. And then how can we kind of do almost essentially this like pre-screen model of now? Let's verify and kind of double-click on things before my recruiter actually has to spend time. And to be clear, we're never taking like the human out of the loop in this, right? Even with using June, we still have a human like reviewing everything, but it's allowing us to review the right candidates, the right fits much faster and spend our time in the right ways.
SPEAKER_01Of course, as you can imagine, I've I've spent a lot of time thinking through the different use cases for AI in talent acquisition. We're seeing across the board, we're seeing it with uh sourcing technology, we're seeing it with intelligent resume review, uh, we're seeing it with AI co-pilots, which was probably the first use case. My thoughts are like that if we talked about like copilots for a minute, like tools like, for instance, uh Breithire's initial service offering was primarily the the co-pilot, and there's there's certainly a lot of value there. What I identified in terms of looking at what's going to be the most impactful solution, it's like that doesn't necessarily alleviate any bottleneck. And I don't know how it really impacts a PL or from like an executive perspective, the argument for spend is I think a little bit more challenging. Um it does help with organization and consistency, and I think it's it's very helpful tools, but it really is like okay, where can we actually focus on getting the biggest productivity gains? I also I I am curious to get your thoughts. Like, there are some tools out there that like in opposed to June, which is like the AI screening and matching, like the actual conversational interview, there is like the AI resume matching. Um I'm curious to see like if you kind of agree with this. Like, my my only concern with using that as a sole way to process uh information to create a shorter, a shorter list of applicants for recruiters is that candidates are just putting their resume into Claude and saying match this JD. And so it's it's like the challenge is I don't think it's actually filtering down the the profiles enough, particularly with like inbound doubling. I don't did you think about like that type of tech? And I don't know if you have a similar perspective or I we I we probably have a similar one, but I'm just kind of curious like like what uh you think about that type of technology.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I I'm totally with you. I'm like very line. So one example that I'll give you is that we actually um worked internally to essentially build like you know, a Claude, you know, it was like a pilot, right? Like we used one role. We basically fed Claude, you know, all the information of like the ideal candidate profile, the criteria and everything, and had to like front load it with like a rubric too. And so we did kind of test this even before and kind of simultaneously, actually, when we started talking about June. And I think some of the learnings there was like, did it help? Did it not help? And you know, while we're still kind of like in the mix of it, what we realized is kind of the same thing. It was like it didn't really help us that much with like alleviating the volume through pre-screening and things like that. And we kept having to tweak the model to get it right. And so while we thought, you know, initially, like, and I think that's kind of the trick with AI is like it takes a lot of time to also build these things yourself and be able to scale them in the ways that you would want to. And so, you know, that's why we're partnering with June because I don't have the time. It's like me and one recruiter right now are hiring another recruiter, which yay, but it's like you don't have the time to really like go in and build every single, you know, rubric and idle candidate profile to then feed the AI, to then enhance it, to then, you know, optimize it and everything. And it it takes a lot of work to do that. And so I think this is like kind of the challenge right now is everyone's still learning AI. Everyone wants to use it in specific ways. But I think the like resume matching thing, if your resume is being built with AI, then you've got these resume matching things. And I mean, you're still not really putting that like human perspective or kind of deeper layer of assessment on it. And that's why I would steer away from those. And that's why June was also something that was very interesting to me was like there's the video, there's the tax, there's all these things that companies are kind of adding in now using AI. But I also, you know, really want to be able to know that my recruiter is spending their time with the right candidates. And so that pre-screening module of this is separate from just like the stack ranking kind of models of things. And so I think that's where where I'm seeing it separate is like it's not really helping. It's just like giving you a different order of the candidates that are already in your bucket with those tools, whereas this is going to take it layers deeper for us to do a deeper assessment before we go spend 30, 40 minutes with the candidate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think we're seeing at June, we've probably added 10 deals to our pipeline in the last month. We saw we started the company a little over a year ago, and last year we there was like interest people wanted to learn, but it seemed like a lot of companies didn't want to move forward because they were just like, Well, let's let's just see. We don't think people want to do X, Y, and Z. And and now, like, it's it seems like out of nowhere to get everybody is kind of in alignment of like, we need this, like, this is sort of becoming table stakes. One of the weirdest honestly, this actually surprised me like straight up. Like, and it's not just June, but in this type of technology across the board, like candidate reviews for AI screening is actually often like a 4.5 out of five star. Maybe not last year, but it's actually like high. And in like in hindsight, it sort of makes sense to me because like the way that I view it is if if I'm a buyer and I go on like a website, right? And there's like one website where I fill out a crappy form and nobody gets back to me for like a week, and there's another website that has like a really intelligent AI that's answering all my questions immediately. Like, clearly, that's a better buy and experience. Um, but it's for whatever reason, like it wasn't and we we obviously made a bet. We didn't know for sure if this was, but like it wasn't necessarily as intuitive to a lot of folks a year ago that this was gonna be the thing. Everybody was like, folks, co-pilot, copilot, co-pilot. But it's like now it's like, well, actually, what's driving ROI and removing bottlenecks, you know? So it's just interesting to see the evolution of like thought process behind it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I, you know, I think the other piece of the conversation with like the tech stack piece and talent right now is like nobody wants to use like 18 different tools either. And now that's why, like, you know, everyone's trying to figure out like what's the right mix if I have this ATS or if I have this HRIS system and all these things. And I think there's still a lot of skepticism too, both on the candidate and the company side of like, you know, what's gonna happen even 12 months from now with AI, right? Like, how does this evolve? And so I think there's almost like this, it makes a lot of sense to me that you're getting a lot more like kind of interest right now, too. I think we're still seeing a ton of like layoffs, we're still seeing a ton of candidates on the market, great talent on the market. And with all the teams being kind of like cut down and so lean these days, we have no option but to try and like optimize our workflows, build more efficiency and you know, because time kills deals, right? We all know that. So if we're taking too long because we can't even get through the top of funnel, we're gonna lose the best talent. And so I think the interesting piece too is how the candidates are gonna respond. And so I think as we make this move to use this model, it's even more important now for us to really think about like what our candidate surveys are asking to ensure that we're also monitoring like how is how is our brand showing up using something that is an AI, you know, powered tool to make sure that we're not losing that consistency either. And I think that's why being able to kind of like customize things, have access to work with you directly, like that to me was kind of where like June also pulled ahead. I don't want a really large tool where it's like hard to even get in touch with like customer success or things like that. And I think that's why right now we're also seeing a ton of new tools pop up left and right, too, is like there's an opportunity to get in the door now and kind of figure out what the market's telling us too. And that to me, as a customer, I think means a lot to be able to help like influence that, share feedback, work in partnership with a company that's building something versus just like the plug and play kind of tools that are already out there.
SPEAKER_01I want to take a moment to pivot and discuss something else that you brought up in the in the prep where it's it's I think one of your hiring philosophies of generalist profiles versus specialists. And I think maybe the roots of this philosophy come from you being a jack of all trade. But um can you talk to us about like why often you feel like I don't know how often, but there are times in which you're you think
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SPEAKER_01the specialist profile isn't actually the way to go and to go with a generalist candidate and walk us through that that mindset?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's actually more important than ever to consider consider generalists over specialists. And I have some reasons why. Um, you're definitely right. I'm sure a lot of it pertains to my own background. And I think that there's a couple key factors in like why generalists work in my mind. Number one, I do come from like the high growth startups, but I think even like larger, kind of you know, older companies I've been around also have a need for this generalist profile. And the reason is that we kind of spoke about it a little bit already, but the adaptability, the ability to learn quickly, the also just the business acumen of someone who's been a generalist, they understand the business more holistically in my mind than a specialist does. And so there are times when you need a specialist in certain ways. And a lot of times that happens, you know, maybe more so in like a technical capacity. Like I need someone who has this specific experience, you know, and and all of that. But the generalist piece to me, especially with where we're at with the AI today, if you have someone who can learn quickly, if you have someone who can think about the business more holistically, the types of programs, the type of work, the types of projects that they touch are going to be stronger, in my opinion, than a specialist. And, you know, if you understand how marketing works and you're talking uh, you know, to our data team or business intelligence team about hiring for their role, you're already connecting those dots in like a recruiting capacity, right? And so when you go to build an ideal candidate profile or when you go to build the actual interview process, I think folks that have like touched all these different pieces, parts of the business world can make sense of it much faster. They can speak to candidates more eloquently about what their work is actually impacting in an organization. And I think that they're the folks who do not mind rolling up their sleeves, diving into whatever's asked of them. They get excited about like the next challenge. Again, there's definitely times for specialists, but I think with where AI is going, it is also kind of turning the specialist mode like on its head, right? Engineering is now like an example of that, where, you know, what's the difference of an AI engineer versus an engineer, you know, like over here who's maybe dabbling with it but isn't using it in their daily workflows? Like we are seeing the evolution happen in front of us. And the folks who can stay adaptable and move quick as the actual like technology and market and industry is moving, I think those are the people who are going to win and the people who are gonna excel in their career as well.
SPEAKER_01I agree. What about junior versus senior talent? Do you have any thoughts on? Because that to me is an interesting, it's sort of like a parallel or adjacent where I I mean, my my thought process on this has evolved over the past couple of years, but I'm curious if you have a perspective there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I definitely do. I think that actually it's funny because we we talk about this a lot as well internally, but I actually have a lot of interest in starting to push organizations that I'm working for to hire more junior talent. And there's a couple of reasons why. Number one, like, you know, I'm your typical like millennial, right? Where I was like somewhere caught in between of everything kind of new coming up. You know, we didn't have our cell phones at, you know, such a young age. We didn't have like a lot of the technology that we have today. And so we had to make sense of it and kind of go through that change management process ourselves. Whereas more junior talent has grown up using all of these tools, knowing about these things. Like they are proficient in things that I probably am not anymore, even at like the stage of my career. And so I actually think there's an incredible amount of value in bringing more junior folks into the business and actually like remembering to learn from them is number one. But I think there's a time and place for when you need more senior talent as well. But I think that things are shifting. And I I it's interesting to see all the data out there too of like what happens if you stop hiring junior talent, like what happens to your future leaders? And so I think there's got to be a blend. But at the same time, I really think that like more junior talent are going to be the ones that are kind of pushing the limits, introducing new ideas, thinking outside the box more than their leaders even are, because no matter how much we try and continue to push ourselves to learn, we are not the ones who kind of grew up in this world already. And so I have to imagine that there's talent being missed out on when folks are trying to go more, you know, senior and they're forgetting that like those more junior employees have so much to offer that we don't necessarily have at the tippy top of our minds all the time.
SPEAKER_01About a year ago, it occurred to me that my daughter will not remember life before Chat GPT.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, I didn't even think. I don't have kids, so I'm like, nope, didn't think about that. I just, you know, that is a wild thing though.
SPEAKER_01Kids born, you know, in the past several years, like they're not gonna know life before AI.
SPEAKER_00Oh gosh. That's a wild, wild thing.
SPEAKER_01It's insane. It's really crazy to think about.
SPEAKER_00I'm like, I can't even imagine all like the different types of roles that don't exist today that will in like five to ten years, too. It's just it's fascinating. It's really, really fascinating, like how much this is changing things. And I I like cannot, it's so hard to keep up with it, too, but it's exciting and it's terrifying
AI Obsession And The Talent Tech Stack
SPEAKER_00at the same time.
SPEAKER_01I will say that ever since like chat came out, there's a level of passion that came back to my career that I felt like was lacking in talent acquisition because there was sort of like this like lack of innovation in the space, and it was just like one a new ATS would come out that's like maybe marginally better than another, and it's like more of the investment in you know, five, ten years ago was in revenue tools, not in talent acquisition tools. And so it was just sort of I don't know, getting like a little bit repetitive. And I I mean, not that I don't love like some of the human elements of like what we do, but frankly, it did, it's it's it's it feels harder today. Uh it feels harder to be at the top of my game, and that there's just like everything is so competitive, everything is moving so fast. I feel like you have to be so good and so adaptable, but it's also like I'm excited again. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_00I feel the same exact way. I feel like it's funny because my um my team was like, oh, Chelsea's in like mad scientist mode over here. As soon as I start like peppering our Slack channel with all the AI things that I'm like learning or working on. And it's it's certainly brought a very different level of empowerment to my role now. It's fun to learn. Like I think sometimes we forget, like you get into this place in your career, that's what I was talking about. Like, once you kind of like hit this like 12 to 15 year mark in your career, you're kind of like, well, I've been doing this. What's next? You know, and it's not a plateau, but like you have to remember to keep learning. And I think AI has like, you don't have an option anymore. You have to learn it. But really thinking through some of the things, especially like my weaknesses as a leader and how AI is helping me like refine that, organize myself better, prioritize things, write better. There's so many different ways that is helping me as a leader show up better to the business, to my team and my counterparts. And it's just, it's so exciting. Like I literally was working last night on like redefining our team competencies, building better SLAs and KPIs, and like to be able to take my messy brain, talk to a tool and have it spit something out that probably would have, you know, previously taken me hours, if not like longer, to really think through, sit with, build it myself. I mean, it is going to totally change the game for leaders and for teams as well as for the business. And so I'm like definitely on the same page as you with the like, I'm feeling very energized. I am, I've moved away from like the skeptic mode of it. And I'm like, okay, how also can we think about like creative ways to use this and maybe really rethink like I think recruiting is stale, I think resumes are stale, I think we're running the same processes we have for years and decades, you know. It's just we we need to find a better way. And I think that AI and a lot of what's happening in the industry right now is going to shift us there. But you're gonna need to have the right people kind of leading the charge to make sure that it's working for all parties involved, including the candidates as well.
SPEAKER_01So, over the next few years, what are you gonna be focused on? Everybody tuning in is these are typically our audience lifetime, lifelong learners. I'm curious to see like what do you see as like the next best version of yourself, right?
SPEAKER_00That is a great question. Um, I think really where I'm really focused right now, I think when, you know, again, we kind of talk about like the stage of career. I'm very grateful for all the opportunities that have helped me get to where I am today. I think that, you know, I lived in San Francisco for two years after college. I lived in Manhattan for seven years, and that was like a very, very defining part of me as a human being, not just me as a professional, but I think the like personal side and the professional side have to tie together in ways. And I think for the next few years, I'm really focused on what makes me happy outside of work and how do I really optimize that? How do I stay healthy? How do I stay happy? You know, I always speak to the fact that like I'm, you know, I'm 35, turning 36. It wasn't until I was 33 that I was like diagnosed with ADHD. And I felt this like pressure in moving up in my roles, and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't like break through it. And that was like a really defining moment for me understanding how much taking care of my myself, my mental health, you know, my physical health really ties to my ability to show up better at work. And so right now in my life, it's like really honing in what I'm doing outside of work to be better at work, and then within kind of the professional side of things, you know, continuing to push myself to learn. And I will say one of the one of the things that I've done lately is just really try and like evaluate where are my gaps and how do I actually get better at those things. And there's a few areas like talent and people ops has really blended a lot in in the past few years in ways that I think are are shifting, like what skills you need, even as a TA leader. So when you think about like resource planning, workforce, you know, planning, you think about total rewards, you think about kind of where these like lines get a little bit blurred. That's also kind of some of my focus area is how do I get better and stronger in some of the like people function areas that maybe I haven't spent as much time on in my talent acquisition career. And being able to kind of bridge that gap, speak the language of other folks within your own function or you know, to finance teams, executives. I think that's actually where leadership, like leaders should be focusing their time is identifying their gaps and closing that gap. That's at least what I'm gonna do. So that no role in my future state of my career is gonna seem like there's too big of a gap. And that kind of goes to like the generalist perspective again, right? It's like there's HR and there's talent, but that's kind of no longer. And so finding ways to really kind of like understand the more holistic people function. Is also an area as a talent leader that I find really critical to continuing to grow in my own career as well.
SPEAKER_01Something that really resonated with me is just um one of my takeaways from your story, and and as you've
Generalists Junior Talent And The Future
SPEAKER_01learned more about how your brain works and using that to continue to figure out how to grow, it's I I do think taking time to slow down and really think about how our brain works and try to have to develop that knowledge of of ourselves is really important because otherwise we might just be treating a symptom without like addressing it the right way to truly make a lot of progress. And that that's something that I you know, I frankly I've been I was actually having a conversation about this the other day, but I feel like it's it's it's important almost like sometimes before we start building to really understand how our how our brains work and to try to have an accurate pulse on our weaknesses and our strengths in terms of how we think, how we operate, how we execute. And yeah, not only that, but like try to under like understand if you understand the fundamental layer, like why? Like what's going on, you know, and and what are we like what do we do really well? And then why do I why is this one thing a little bit harder? And um can I work on it? Do I have to avoid it? Like, you know, like what yeah, like why so that you know, but I think that's maybe just a level of self-awareness that just takes time to develop. And we always it's just not something we always figure out when we're just starting out, you know. It's sometimes it's totally I think it's actually pretty common for people to. I mean, it's as they, you know, as we get to your 30s, you to find out things that you're like, wow, this is you know, yeah, continually.
SPEAKER_00It's definitely definitely, yeah, the self-awareness piece, I think that's that's probably another like big pillar uh for me is like I've been through so many different, you know, different teams, different companies, different stages of growth. And like there's so much learning there. But when you spend the time really like on the personal side of understanding how you said, like, how do I work? Why doesn't something work for me like it does for everyone else, and really trying to figure out your own structure. I think a lot of times when you're more junior in your career, you just take the structure that's given to you and you try and make it work. And really the folks who will kind of accelerate their careers much faster are the ones who are going to build those frameworks, build their own ways of working, but understand why they work for them and when it's time to pull that lever versus that one and when you need to take a step back, when you need to slow down. And oftentimes I say that to my team. I'm like, we need to slow down in order to speed it up right now. And let's make sense of it versus just continuing to like hustle and charge forward and do the startup thing. It's like at times you really got to take a step back and say, this isn't working for me. I don't want to keep spinning my wheels because that's also what leads to burnout. And so really trying little bits and pieces at a time, I'm doing it too. And like, yes, I may be in a leadership role, running whatever in my career right now, but I still identify where those areas of weakness are, at least where I need to start bridging the gap. And I don't think leaders can ever lose sight of that. And so that's the piece to me is like, let me hone in on what's gonna work best in order for me to accelerate versus focusing just on like one skill or where I have a gap in my professional side. It all ties back to whether or not you're like taking care of yourself and building the right ways of working for you. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Well, Chelsea, look, this has been so much fun. I really enjoyed this episode. This is uh definitely one of my favorites.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate you having me on. It's always fun chatting with you, and I'm so excited to like continue our work together as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, me too. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing all your insights and experiences and a little bit about yourself with our audience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's always a pleasure, and I hope folks had some good takeaways from today, too, if they're listening.
