EP 220: Elephants, Lions & the Psychology of Talent Leadership

Growing up between Canada and East Africa, Michael Kieran’s childhood was shaped by international communities, close encounters with elephants and lions, and experiences that challenged the way he saw the world. He brings that same perspective to building high-performing recruiting teams grounded in consistency, ambition, and continuous growth as a Fractional Talent Leader. In this conversation, he shares why the best TA organizations think differently about performance, AI, and what it really means to become world-class.

Connect with host James Mackey on LinkedIn!

Thank you to our sponsor, SecureVision, for making this show possible! 

 
Follow us:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/82436841/

SecureVision: #1 Rated Embedded Recruitment Firm on G2!
https://www.g2.com/products/securevision/reviews

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Welcome And Capital City Small Talk

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Michael Kieran with us today. Goes by MK. MK, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hey, thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Yeah, it's great to have you here. So where are you from?

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Ottawa, Canada. You know where that is? I think it's like due north of you. Yeah? It's East Coast? Yeah, East Coast, Eastern time zone. That's the most important part. But kind of like halfway in between Montreal and Toronto to be really rough. Due north of Northeast U.S. cities, you probably know.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I I have not been, but uh I would love to actually spend more time in Canada. It hasn't really happened. I've been to Victoria and uh just it was on a cruise and we we stopped there. Uh but yeah, with not you know, not a whole lot of time, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Um I think uh Canada's great to visit. Um unless you have things you'd love to do in the snow, I would recommend that you uh come between June and October. Actually, years ago, I um I had one group in London and one group in San Francisco, and we wanted to do an off-site for town teams. So I brought everybody to Montreal and we went to one of the big ski hills here in Montrembois and did an off-site there. But the coolest part we was went to dog slide for a group that nobody had really been in the snow much, and we had you know full husky troop, and uh yeah, it was pretty special.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

That's awesome, man. Yeah, I'd love to do something like that. I've never done anything like that. Um that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

If you ever work this way, I'll take your dog slider.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yes, all right, I'm down. I will take you up on that. So yeah, for sure, man. Um well vice versa. If you're ever down in the DC area, you gotta let me know. Have you been down here?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Uh, I think I've driven through, but I've never never stopped. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

It's worth it's worth stopping by, man, for a few days. You only need like three or four days.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, we're both like in capital cities, right? So that brings this, you know, there's there's a level of conservatism that just happens when you have a lot of federal employees with extraordinarily steady income.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

And I know that's not necessarily the case in the US anymore, man. No, I guess not.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

You know, I guess that's all about, right? That's a spiky industry now working for the plants.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, I know. It's it's kind of weird. It's like, wait, I'm like private industry and it feels a little more stable than government, which is like that when the hell did that happen? I'm like, I work in tech, like what's going on? Um, but uh well, yeah, man. And so you uh so you were born there, but you moved at a pretty young age, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah, yeah, when I was three. So when I was three. So my dad's Canadian, uh like he was you know born here and things. My mom's actually from Uganda in Eastern Africa, and he met her years ago when he was doing work there. He's always done developmental work with the governments there on like public-private partnerships and rail and ports and things like that. And he met her. My little brother tells the best story about it about at a Christmas party, and he like did some 70s hip slide room-up to her or something like that. But anyhow, so he went back to Canada and they stayed in touch, um, like just writing to each other. And then he eventually sent her a it was a round trip ticket. There was a war going on at the time, and

Roots In Canada And East Africa

SPEAKER_01 3:25

she just never took the trip home. And so we lived in Canada, that's where I was born, and then um he got a job with the uh Tanzanian government when I was three. So we moved there. I lived there from when I was three till when I was eight uh years old, yeah, which was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, sounds amazing.

unknown 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

And you were telling me too that uh I'm sure that was uh like an incredibly formative experience and somewhat of a unique experience for somebody that grew up in that's from Ottawa initially, right? And from North America. Yeah. It's like a big, big question, but I I mean I'd love to just kind of dive into like what that was like and and some of your memories there and and you know, maybe some of the most impactful things that you experienced while you lived over there.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah. It was um incredibly different. I went to an international school, which basically was people that were also not from Tanzania going to one common school. So I grew up in an environment where my set of friends, one was from Sweden, one was from Japan, one was, you know what I mean? It was very normal. Like we did this like we are the world thing, you know, singing that to parents at Christmas time. And it all felt, it didn't feel like a fantasy, like it was all very normal. This idea, this harmonious international community was what I really grew up in, which was amazing. But it also created, to be honest with you, a lot of naivety for me as well when I came back into North America. Other pieces that

Growing Up In Tanzania’s International Bubble

SPEAKER_01 4:55

were you know really special was we were right by all the big parks. So for us going to like Serengeti for a weekend and actually setting up tents, like we go often enough that we wouldn't stay in lodges and things. We'd literally pitch tents in the middle of the park. You know, sometimes that meant elephants walking by your tent, which was pretty sketchy. No, man, how close. Oh, like I remember one time my dad was legitimately scared because he thought that they were gonna get wrapped up in our ropes and then just start crashing, right? But he was always putting us in these sketchy situations, like he thought it was kind of fun and stuff like that. It is pretty fun. It's fun, it's like that. Like, well, we all kind of crave at that like proximity to danger. As a kid, I I felt it a lot. Like, um, but yeah, really close. I mean literally like three feet.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

All right. So are they like pretty docile or are they uh can they be aggressive?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Like they seem like yeah, it's they're defensive, like they're territorial and they're docile, but don't you get close to them, they'll like look at you, which is the first warning. Like an elephant squares up to you, back up. It's basically that's a way of saying like too close, and too close is within 10 feet, like that's way too close. You're likely to get charged, and they let you get pretty like so.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

It sounds like they're like pretty reasonable. They're like, All right, look, like you're kind of annoying me, you're like my peripherals, but it's fine. Just just like be aware, like I see you.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Yeah, but it's also like I'm trying to think of an animal that acts in a similar way. Um, I don't know if there was one. I said 10 feet. I wouldn't go 10 feet within an Lude. I don't know why it's 10 feet. I've been within 10 feet of one and survived it, but I wouldn't recommend anybody go.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah, anybody tuning in, like, don't just don't just oh it's fine. Yeah, I said it was fine.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, I remember one time we were backing up, we were driving in somewhere, it was late. We got in it like late, late. I mean, like two in the morning. And that stops a car, and like I'm all the way in the back. We're in this, they call them Pajero, is it an old SUV? And I'm in the back, like you know, back back, like by the windows, sitting on suitcases, and he backs up, and I think it's this giant rock that like the brake lights is shining onto, and then we stop there, and then the rock just turns around and goes like huge ears turns around, and of course, cars stalls and stuff going on, and I think I couldn't, I still couldn't tell you if he did it on purpose and he was messing with us. Um, but that got my heart rate up. That was like you know, more intense than any interval training version.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, you thought it was uh you thought it was a rock, but it was an elephant, yeah. Yeah, that's that's an interesting life experience right there.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Wow, especially when you're four or five years old, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I mean, at 34, like it's that's still like a crazy experience.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah, that was fun.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, I was just wondering, like, so were there any other uh close encounters?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Oh yeah, I yeah, go on and on and on. Like, um I remember one, so my favorite place in East Africa is it's called Ngorogoro, is the name of the park. And Ngorogoro Crater is this volcano that it erupted many years ago. I want to say somewhere in the range of like a hundred thousand years ago, and on the inside, the volcano is so large that if you you can drive up the side of it, which is all full of like lush vegetation, then you get to the peak of the edge, and inside is like I'll say it in miles, but it's probably like you know, somewhere around 400 square miles on the inside of flat land with a lake, and it's all lush, full of animals. It's an entire park, and then you drive down into the park, so you're in this, and it feels like you're just surrounded by mountains. It's wow. Gorgeous, gorgeous spot. But I remember one time we were driving up the side, and again, you know, my dad stops. And by the way, on these trips, usually you have a guy, that's the way you should do it. You should have a driver who takes you around. He was always, I mean, he's the one white guy driving in the whole car every single time. And um, I'll tell you two creep stories. This one we pull up, and there's literally three lions sitting like on the side of the road here at like eye level for me. And my dad goes, Oh, stops like this. Now we're like, I don't know, I'm not kidding, six to ten feet from them. And he rolls down the window and he's like, Wow, take a look, guys. I mean my brother have got a brother who's a year younger than me. So we're at the time called it seven and six or something like that. And I'm and I'm too, I don't want to tell my dad that I'm scared. So I say, like, this is boring. Let's go. I'm bored. My mom still loves to talk about that, but yeah, so anyway, nothing happened except for again little heart rate spike. But um, yeah, it was uh lots of little experiences like that. Yeah, I think it's it's developed a you know, sometimes a courage in certain situations, maybe some sort of like inner, like small final thing that exists, like the worst that could happen.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, no, it's like you're you know uh offer decline. You're like, I stood face to face with a lion when I was six years old.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Like this is not you know, I mean, I sat there and watched the real tough guys are the Maasai that live in the park. What they do when they're so part of their rite of passage as a boy, like when you turn 13, is you go out with the tribe, you have a spear, and wait, so who are sorry, just like some quick background on this. Yeah, who are we talking about? So the Maasai is like a tribe that's lived in different parts of East Africa and certainly been like the men slash people in some of these major parks that you see in clips, like Serengeti and Maslow.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Maasai is the name of the the tribe or exactly, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And you might have seen they usually have like the women wear these like um these necklaces that stretch their necks, they have like uh droopy ears from like stretched out earrings, they're usually wearing a red, almost like a cloak, which is really like bloodstained

Maasai Courage And Lion Reality Checks

SPEAKER_01 11:30

from cow blood, and they're badass, like they're I mean, so to give you an idea, the at 13 years old, your right of passage to becoming a man as you go out with the tribe, all of you on foot, they surround a lion, a male, and you at 13 go into the middle of the circle with the lion, and your right of passage is to kill that lion. You're kidding me. No, that's they all go through that. I think they eventually like slowed it down as like nature preserve environment, you know, environmentalists and things like that. But that has been the yeah, that's that's how you come now.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And you have a spear.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah, I even I have one here. Um there, yeah. So the idea is it's like a you know, call it a seven foot, eight foot sphere. Um, and the back end of it is also a rod of metal. So the idea is you plant that into the ground, you have the line charge you, and the method is you actually have the spear stuck into the ground between your legs, it jumps, leaps like the Florida Panthers logo, and and this and you fall backwards, sphere tapes in, and he dies all the sphere over you. That's the move.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

13 years old.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, or not, and then you don't see 14.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

And then you know then do you know like the like the uh what percentage roughly live through it?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, I don't think they do census reports, um, but uh right, but I mean no, I don't know. I don't know. I think most. I think most most? I'd say yeah, that's most wild. So okay, I gotta yeah, take a look at it. Yeah, it's it's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

And sorry, what's what's the name of the group of the tribe again?

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah, M-A-S-A-I. So to give you an idea of like who they are, so they're always on foot in all these parks and things. And when you're in the parks, everybody's in there, you know, these Land Rovers, like proper SUVs, and you know, let's say lions are eating or there, people tend to kind of form this semi circle with some distance, pull up really quiet and things. And the lions are not bothered, but when they see Maasai walking, lions move, they they are afraid. Their top of the food chain, top predator are the Maasai, not the lions or any other animal. Like they're their instinct when they see those red cloaks and they see them walking, they hide, they move.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

That's wild. Yeah, yeah. I um I was looking it up right now. Yeah, it looks like they've it's not as common today. No, it doesn't surprise people. I don't think yeah, yeah, that's but that's that's incredible though. I've never actually heard of that.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

So anything. I don't want to take on this on your story, but it's not oh yeah, it's it's a really cool story.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

So did your family ever have like are they like kind of a remote tribe that doesn't interact with like other other folks, or it like or do they interact as part of like modern society?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Oh, now they definitely yeah, now they definitely and they're not you know my my lineage is Uganda, different tribes not in the parks. I just had a lot of experience meeting, getting to know some of the beside folks, but yeah, they're definitely part of society now. Like a truth is a lot of the parks today are so like the commercial opportunity is so massive that even the difference. Um, I was we took a trip two, three years ago, and it was so busy. And I get everybody's, you know, I don't know if the word entitled to have the experience and things is there, but it was the amount of cars and like you go, you know, it just it was heartbreaking in a lot of ways because it used to be something, even from my childhood, which is you know, not that long ago, a couple of decades, but like not that long ago, there's a stark difference between um how many people are in the park and how busy it is, and it takes away, you know, it takes away some of the like just the raw scenery experience, and it's just all these engines turning off and on and people yelling to each other and talking and things. So um, so it's it's still an outstanding experience that I'd recommend to anybody, but I do think the glory days are over. I mean, I I can only imagine what people, folks like you know, in the let's call it like 1900s, 1920s colonialists coming over and like having their experiences. Um, it must have been pretty fascinating to see just how different the world was operating. But we can spend a lot of time here. I know there's other stuff that you want to cover too. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. And then coming back to Ottawa when you were eight years old, right? Yeah, yeah. So you were eight years old. That must have also been a big transition going back.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, it was tough. I mean, there was I was always so excited to to to go to like North America does, but like that was always like they have everything, you know, it's everything you could possibly want in life, is there, it's uh amazing, awesome. And the truth is, like, we really do. You know, you're you're lucky to be living growing up in a first world country. It's um very easy to take all the spoils for granted. Um so that was great, but the part that was really disappointing

Culture Shock Returning To Canada

SPEAKER_01 17:15

for me, and um was I was talking about the naivety that I grew up with in front of this international school. So I remember, I think this probably sums it up really well. Is I remember in my uh there was this this kid engraved, I came back and I was in grade four, I guess. And there's a kid named Chris Demers. I'm gonna call him out. Hate you, Chris. Okay, that I still remember because of this joke he told, and it was, you know, how do you count the population of Ethiopia? Um, roll a Cheerio down the street. And he thought it was hilarious. And I remember being like so confused, right? Like as I as a kid that it seen real poverty and seen disease, seen war, that the idea that this was a joke was that like, you know, it's so funny because they're so hungry and they're all dying that the whole country would run after a Cheerio. And he's and it was like it broke my heart. I remember I started crying in the classroom, and he said, like, oh, what your is your mom what did he say? He's like, Were you from Ethiopia? And I had to like find some way of justifying it. So I said, No, but my mom is, and she was, she's from Uganda. But either way, I remember like being so hurt in that that moment. Um Yeah, just that the overall lack of understanding um of of what some people in the world are actually going through and seeing. So um it made it a tough uh and then you know, throw in that I was you know, mixed kid with that I with you know, just in trying to find an identity. Um, so I found hip hop and that solved all my problems. Um, but it was, you know. So then yeah, I I'm joking, but I'm not, but that definitely did find a little slot for me. And I was like, okay, yeah, this will work. How do you get through it? Will Smith? All right, that's how I'm gonna be. All right, I I get it. Um, how'd I get through it? Oh, you know, I stumbled through it. I well, it wasn't until I was in grade nine, I think, that I really found a slob that I decided I, you know, that that made a lot of sense for me. And I was uh when I was 12, I was five, six, had size 12 feet, and you know, at the time, like Timberlands, those kind of construction boots were in. And so I'd asked my mom first in Timberlands. She, of course, you know, got me construction boots that were steel-toed and two sizes too big because I was gonna grow into them, she thought. So there I was, you know, five, six, probably 115 pounds, soaking wet with my size 13 construction steel-toed boots. I remember kids pointing to be like, are those real? Are those really your feet? And I was on the basketball team and 17th man on a 12-man roster, made the team because of my little league baseball coach was also the basketball coach. And we went to the city championship game as fans because the senior team um was playing in it. And in that game, there was a guy um uh named Braden White. Um, and Braden White uh looked like me. You know, he was he was a mixed, mixed kid, and he was the best player in the city, and he was uh dumping in warm-up. And I decided in that moment that that's who I was gonna be. I was gonna be the best player in the city, and we were gonna go to the city championship game, and we were gonna win it. And that really formed, you know, the way that I behaved, the level of discipline, consistency, the way I executed against goals, not only for the next four years, as I slowly you know approached and ultimately, you know, a lot of people would say achieved that goal is becoming the best player in the city. Um but it really formed you know the my my love for the process, a belief in the process of like discipline, hard work, and consistently trying to achieve a goal.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Where do you think that comes from? Like this desire to be like great or the best.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

It's fun. It's so fun. It's so fun to like test yourself and push yourself and then get the small wins along the way. Like that feeling, that internal you feeling you have when you're proud of yourself, when you're proud of your progress, is amazing. It's probably one of the most rewarding feelings you can have is setting a goal for yourself, not for others, but something you've decided internally is who you want to be and the things you want to do. And then going out and getting those things done and grinding through it is an outstanding feeling. And you crave more of it. So I think the process of trying to become the best is like. Okay, what are the wins that need to happen along the way? And that becomes my fuel. And what's my goal? My goal is yes, to become the best. But really, the achievement is getting better all the time. It's actually more important. And if you want to do that, then setting a goal and a finish line of the best. It's got to be not impossible, but almost should feel like the finish line is close. It should be distant. It should be rewarding to make progress. And it should at one point feel impossible. And then as you make progress, feel like it's getting closer and closer. I personally find that incredibly rewarding in every component of life. You can do that as in terms of who you want to be in your family. You can do that in terms of who you want to be with your work for yourself, you know, the way you take care of yourself. I think that putting in the time effort to decide what it actually is you want to be, and then doing the things that bring you closer to it are extremely rewarding. You know, I'll tell you that the nights that I don't sleep well, those are the days I didn't do what I said I wanted to be. I don't know. If I do everything that I wanted to do that day and said I was going to do, it doesn't matter what life's throwing at me. I'll be fine. Right? It's the days where you decide, you know what, maybe I won't today. I'm too tired. I'm too this. And you think you're doing yourself a favor by not committing to the things that you know are what you want to do. But the truth is, that's when you're you're your subconscious is like, you're being who you want to be. So I'm gonna be really loud.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

It was like yeah, I think there's like a couple of things there to slow down on. It's like jumping around in a slightly different uh format or or um order, which is fine. I think we should just run with it. Like one of the things that you talked about, just like a top takeaway is like a talent acquisition leader. Yeah, but I think it's it's probably a top takeaway in life in order to be the best at something or to to reach our potential, is to be consistent. And and part of being consistent is it's it's like doing the work when you feel like you can't at times. Like I actually like that's something that I've really in the last year. I don't know, it's like every once in a while, it's like I just find this next gear I can shift into, which I didn't think existed, but I'm just being pulled in this direction where you have to find that next level, right? Like you have to to get to where you want to be. And that next level for me is like this insane level of consistency, yeah, which I don't frankly

Consistency As The Real Superpower

SPEAKER_00 24:40

always achieve. I am holding myself to like a much higher standard there. Like actually, it was even yesterday where I've had just a string of events over the last couple of weeks that have like I'm pretty good at absorbing shots, and I can usually like I push through hard, like consistently at this point in my career. You just sort of like you hit a wall and it's like 6 p.m. and I got a contract, I gotta get out. And I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like, I can just wait for tomorrow. Like I can just, I don't have to do this. And it took like every ounce of energy to just sit down and like focus and get it done. But I I'm convinced at this point in my career, it's like those moments where it's like you feel like you've given everything and you just like have no more mental capability to focus when you can push through that. You also, it's like you're training your brain, it's like you're you're conditioning it to make it stronger. So next time it's a little easier and you can push even further, right? It's like building any muscle, like the discipline and the ability to just push through those pain barriers, whether it's like psychological or physical, you need that. And that to me, that's a big part of consistency. That's where consistency can get hard. It's when we it's like it's that really hard moments where you feel like you can't push any further, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Absolutely. I think about this stuff a lot too, just you know, I think consistency, it's so it's so simple. And nobody wants to give it credit for being hard, right? But the truth is being hyper disciplined and consistent with how you allocate your time and the things that you commit to and do, um, it's hard. Take recruiters, you know, plenty, if not most recruiters have like a sourcing block, right? Like, that's my sourcing time. They pop it on their calendars. But the truth is a lot of the time it's just catching up on Slack, getting some sourcing in. But whatever reactive, more interesting task comes up, it usually gets prioritized over that sourcing time. I know some that really block off that time, and they're all high performers. And it's again, it comes back to one of the things we were talking about with that uh anatomic habits, where it talks about the photography class that was rated one half on quality of a photo, one photo for the entire semester, rate on quality, and the other group rated on quantity, just 100 photos, isn't it? And the quantity group ultimately ends up submitting better photos than the quality group because they have more time to execute and practice and get better. And I think that's the other thing with consistency on let's stick with the sourcing example. The person that might be a master sourcer and is just a wizard with their messaging and finding people in their string. Great. Maybe it doesn't take you as much time to find 10 people that you want to talk to and you do it here and there and get it done. But I'll take the person who's a six on 10 at sourcing, who's like every morning I'm gonna consistently do these things with high intensity, focus, and effort for an hour a day. Because fast track 12 months, 18 months, that person's skill set is growing at a rate that will surpass this other person's skill quite quickly. Um, and I think that's where the consistency is really beneficial, is you're getting practice, right? Like if you're accessing with a level of consistency and you're getting reps, you're getting better all the time, you're growing. Um, just leveraging your skill in the moment is great for performing in that moment. But did you actually develop and get better? Probably not. Um, so I focus on consistency because it doesn't come as easily or naturally to me as it does to some people. So I know for me, that's the place that I'm really focused on is um yeah, that discipline, consistency, and ultimately trying to practice.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

It's not something I would have considered a strength throughout my 20s either. And frankly, I'd say in the past year of like again, I found a gear that I didn't know existed, and it's like everything is changing, you know. It's um, but it it's it's hard because it's like when you're operating at the highest level, like talk about being the best, it's like you get to the point where you're 97th percentile or 99th percentile, but then what happens is the difference between the best and I feel like the runner-up, it's like who's at 99 versus 99.1 percentile, you know, it's like it's like those like micro shifts, and it's it's it does the things that don't seem like a big deal are the things that drive you to that next level. Totally. Like it's you know, because I I was looking at just some of my mentors throughout the years, like the most successful entrepreneurs, uh, because I run two companies, like that's that's why I you know, a big part of why I do the show is like my company sponsor the show. And you know, I look at like the the the top entrepreneurs and they're insanely consistent and insanely responsive. And by the way, more people are reaching out to them asking for stuff than like anybody else, and yet they're on it, they're responding within the hour, they're giving resources, like hyper responsive, hyper consistent, like super consistent. Yeah, um, it's it's like, and so it's like, okay, like frankly, and they all have like different backgrounds, like maybe some like were kind of like the tech MIT crowd, some of them are like totally opposite than that, but like the common trait was like their communication is pretty strong, but it's if I had to point to like frankly, like one underlying thing, um, beyond like business strategic acumen, there are elements of that, but like they're incredibly consistent, yeah, and and incredibly responsive. Yeah, they're fast, they're fast, they just they execute quickly, they're consistent about it, and they're responsive to people. It's like those those things, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:39

The beautiful thing about it is it's it is a skill that can be developed as well, right? Like it's not just like a gift, like you know, I it's a muscle, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:48

It's like I see it as like a muscle that we develop, but it's it's like going to the gym, it's hard to develop it. It's like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Yeah, and if you're on like if you're being honest with yourself about the goal and becoming better, then I think you have to establish what does the most consistent recruiter in the world do in a week? And like, really, like think about it. And it's not like you're gonna be that tomorrow, but I think if you actually think about that, like if I ask myself, what's the most consistent talent acquisition leader, what's their week look like? All of a sudden now I have a bar on what consistency really needs to look like. And I think that we talked about this a little bit before. When you're setting goals as a function, as a team, as an individual, I think you have to start asking yourself what the best in the world is doing. And what does it really look like for you to actually understand what's possible and what progress you're trying to make? It's not about lapping that person

Benchmarking Against Best In The World

SPEAKER_01 31:45

or that idea you have in your mind, but it's about being really honest and realistic around what is possible and where am I against what's possible and where do I want to be? You know, how much am I committed towards that goal and how much progress am I going to make? I think that's that's one of the ways that I'd like to work with teams is to really have working sessions around different areas that I be focused on, whether that's candid experience, whether that's you know, quality of hire, and really start asking those questions around what's best in the world? What's best in the world on these things? And let's get really honest about that, not compared to who we are and what we're doing today, but what does that really look like? Okay, now where are we? Great. Now, where do we want to be in three months, in six months, in 12 months? And then you start doing your planning and your goals against that, and you can get all the way down in quantifiable things that'll map out your progress and where you want to be, and it's super fun. Like you get the right group of people, and by right, I need people that want to improve, want to get better all the time, and ultimately are looking at this as a craft, and uh that inspires them because they want to be growing, um, they want important work, and ultimately they want to be the best of the world of what they do too.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, I think it's um a common misconception of of people is setting what they feel like are achievable goals, like particularly in business or or even as a parent or anything else. I don't ever set achievable goals, like or goals that are easily achievable. Like I'm always not that they're not achievable, I shouldn't, I misspoke, but I I don't set like reasonable goals, I think is a better way of saying it. I hate reasonable goals. Like I hate the word reasonable when it comes to potential. Like it's it disgusts me. Like, I literally the association in my brain is it's like a nasty thing to say. Um yeah, I this is like my psychology at this point. It doesn't have to be like traditional ambition in terms of like um I'm not talking about like making money or anything. I'm like what I'm talking about is like you know, being present for your kids or like you know, taking care of your health, or uh, you know, which both are obviously more important. Well, hopefully for for most people, it's obvious, but you know, your your health or families are you know are are more important. It doesn't mean we have to sacrifice one for another necessarily. I don't think that I always like I like this idea. We set like best case scenario goals, like whether that's being the best in the world or it's incredibly ambitious, and it can be ambitious on how much you want to love and show for your kids. I'm not necessarily just talking about like work, but like it to me, it's like everything is a formula, like it's it's you set the the goal, and then it's our job to figure out like well, what's the formula to make that happen? It's possible, it might even be unlikely, it might it might be very challenging, but there is a formula to make it happen. So let's let's just set the goal, and if we're not achieving it, it's like okay, well, not we're not achieving it yet, but like let's keep iterating until we figure it out. Like, even for one of my companies, Secure Vision, which is an embedded recruiting and RPO firm, like the way that we set our goal for embedded recruiting deals that we close is based on an incredibly ambitious growth target. Like that's it's it's like you know, mid-triple digits, right? For the company. And I was I've I'd straight up with the team's like, look, I don't know how long it's gonna take. Like, we may not hit this goal in month one, month two, month three, month four, month five. It's it's it's like to be frank, we've hit it like one month out of four, right? The point, but like the point is it's like it's not that we're failing if it doesn't happen, guys. Like not like, but the point is is that this is the problem we're trying to solve. Like, I want to get to the point where we're producing at this level month over month over month over month. Like, I don't even want a home run, I don't want us to just do it once. I want us to build systems where we can do it consistently, right? And like that's how I think about like these these like achieving that level of success, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yes, yeah. I uh I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, uh you know, celebrating small wins is important, um, but like North Star goals should be audacious, right? Like they shouldn't be, I mean, going from good to great, I mean, that was one of the level five leadership traits um was BHAGs, like big, hairy, audacious goals. That was one of the consistent things about the companies that went through great instead of just good, was the way they set their own expectation of what's possible was different, right? Because I think when you set reasonable, easily achievable goals, you're really limiting what you think is possible, right? And that's you know, very human, but I think it limits us tremendously.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

For the flip side of like what I've tried to learn is like celebrating the wins along the way. It's like sometimes we have like such massive goals, it it can be challenging to appreciate. And I think one thing that I would love to talk more about is like you you kind of touched on this idea of like enjoying the process and like the progress that you're making. It's not even necessarily about that end goal, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Like it's I'll tell you one I had this morning on that topic, but it's not you know, today would work, but I was saying that I'm moving in a couple of days, you know, and gonna be closer to my kids' school and activities and friends and things, which is the right move for my life and their life. In the last few years, we've been half an hour away,

Progress Through Setbacks And Self Recognition

SPEAKER_01 37:15

and it was really, you know, first chapter of me being a single dad. Uh today I was like looking at it, I hadn't actually paused for a moment and said, Hey, great job, by the way, the last couple of years. You know, like you showed up for those kids day in, day out. Sure, you had a one-hour road trip to all the birthday parties and schools and activities. Every single one of those drives, you were present, you were listening, you were available, you were setting high standards for how they show up. Um, and did a bunch of things I've never done before, you know, like or been responsible for in terms of all the little things with kids and making lunches and all these little things. But it's like I hadn't actually paused for them and said, Hey, good work, man. Good job. Like you you you did, like you did it really well. And it's not about like I'm done, because my broader goal is I mean, I I can say this, I want to be the best dad in the world, right? Like, and I'm gonna hold myself to that standard. Nobody's gonna give me an a medal once they say you did it. Um, but my kids are gonna feel that it's that important to me, and I'm gonna be better and better at it, you know, all the time. So I think coming back full circle to your point on like celebrating the wins along the way, that was one where um, you know, I paused for a moment today and I was like, whoa, give yourself a little like uh you know, give yourself a little high five here, you know, not like not a podium, but like, you know, a bit of a halftime we're up 10 kind of thing. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, okay, let's go, let's keep it going. Now we we got more work to do, but uh, let's not dismiss, you know, the progress, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yeah, I think progress is like the closest thing to to happiness that it can be like achieved. It's like this, um it just feels like I feel like at times in my life where I'm like moving in the right direction, it's things feel like they're flowing and moving. The only time that I can I ever really feel down is if I feel like there's there isn't for the most part, like it's kind of a generalization, but yeah, it was like there isn't progress. Like if I feel like I'm stuck, if or if I have the same problems today that I had several years ago, like that is the stuff that like hurts, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

There's it's been a study, there's um an article. Um, it's in one of the hard business reviewed magazines on point, focused specifically on goals. And they did a study on people having a good week or a bad week at work. And the short version is a good week and a bad week typically have the same number of setbacks. But the people that said they had a good week made progress against those setbacks, and the people that said it was a bad week didn't make progress against setbacks. So I've actually one of the things that I've worked in is Wednesday, midday, lunchtime, I count the setbacks. I'm like, okay, what are the things that are hard that went off track that are not where they're supposed to be right now? And I know that for me to go and have a great weekend, those are the things that I need to make significant progress on. So you're saying as a as a feeling, like that if you make progress, then everything's good. It's actually it's a studied thing that it's the setbacks are typically the same. It's just your progress that determines if you feel that it was things are good or not.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah, that's that's cool. That's uh yeah, I never actually I guess slowed down to really think about that too much, but um, yeah, I mean that that makes sense to me. You you're a very ambitious person, and for the last segment of the show, um I actually would would like to focus uh works for you is just on like your professional ambition of like, you know, you you'd mentioned like you want to become the best talent leader in the world, like which is pretty consistent with our theme of like, hey, let's let's really shoot for the stars and like have like a lofty inspiring goal, like an inspiring goal, right? Um and that that clearly is that. And I I am curious though, so we've talked about the essentially like the psychology behind this and the why behind this. Um, but I I would like to get your thoughts on like in terms of actionable steps, when you think about achieving that, like how how do you think about getting there?

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Yeah.

Building Best In Class Talent Leadership

SPEAKER_01 41:41

So there's a few categories. The way that I would map it out, you know, sitting in a leader of a talent function, again, it comes back to segmenting out the different parts of the job, and then saying, quantum finally, what is best in the world look like for the volume components, the quantity of a recruiting function, how many screens, you know, interviews, et cetera, what's best in the world look like, quality, what does it best in the world look like, candidate experience, diversity, all these elements, what's best in the world look like? And as a function, you can basically create a scorecard on a scale of one to ten based on your scores across all these areas, with perfect score, a 10 being best in the world. From there, map out the progress steps that you need to make to get closer and closer to a 10. So that's the way that I approach it from a telefunction perspective. In terms of self-development, I would lean um in 2026, I think to be best in world, you're also gonna have to have an AI skill set that's best in world. Right. So I think, you know, even if your goal wasn't best in the world, but just getting better, your ability to leverage AI to do your work needs to be increasing at a faster rate than AI's usability is. In other words, we've all seen that graph of how steep the curve is just ripping upwards in terms of things that you can do. You can't be lagging behind that curve, right? Like you, if anything, your curve should be running, you want your curve to be running at a steeper rate of development and learning. So I I mean, so when I think about what that really means, when I think about my AI skills, I need to 2x them every quarter. Like literally what I can do with AI in terms of what I can build from workflow or agent perspective, efficiency perspective, I need to be twice as good every three months because that's the way AI is developing. Um, and I think if we're actually honest with ourselves, we're all doing, you know, probably at least 30%, 40% just by showing up. If you spend an extra Like dedicated again, consistency. If you say three hours a week, I'm going to do nothing but build and not motion, faction, not read some articles, not attend a webinar. Get in there and put some reps in, right? Decide something you're going to build and say it doesn't, I'm not going to theorize, I'm not going to plan. I'm just going to get in there and say, okay, what are my next steps? How do I do that? Okay. And set very clear goals on what you're actually trying to accomplish, what you're trying to build, have dedicated time, make it consistent. And if it's three hours a week or four hours a week, be consistent with that time. And again, I think thinking about it as do you want to be the best with AI in the craft of recruiting? What does that look like? What can that person do? You know, the way I used to do it, like think about it early on in my career when we talk about best in the world, is I think about Jordan, right? Like I was, you know, I grew up in basketball, so that was an easy analogy for me. But I remember breaking it down because I went to this uh the big aha moment for me was I went to have you ever heard of five-star basketball camp?

SPEAKER_00 45:00

No.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

So it was this like you know, high school kind of like one of these prospect camps with some of the best players in the US. I'll go to a camp for all the D1 coaches to come take notes, recruit, et cetera. And I went to that camp and there was some, there were some NBA all-stars there. There was like Ron Art Test was there, and Elton Brand and a bunch of other guys that all went big

Learning AI Like An Athlete

SPEAKER_01 45:25

D1. And I was, you know, I was pretty good, but I went there and he's a guy who's way better. Like it wasn't even close, right? Like I had no business being on the court with Ronard Test. He was scary. Like he they called him Ronnie Coast to Coast. I don't know. For people that don't know who Ronnie, Ron Art Test is, he's the guy that got in the fight where they went into the stands and started hitting people, and he's not wired all the way, right? But he's 6'8, 240 when he was 19 years old, and he used to just run from one end of the floor to the other and just knock over whoever's in the way and then dunk on, maybe elbow you in the fifth. But I remember playing with those guys and being like, I don't understand how good Michael Jordan is then. How can this be one generation's better, not even best players, and he's better than every single generation of these by a huge distance? And I think that was the first time I really opened up my eyes in terms of what like best in world really means, how high a level it was, and how huge a distance, outstanding performance to best in the world really is. So I think if you start actually comparing the work you do against that, and and maybe you know, for me the domain's basketball, but some people have other domains, hobbies, or things that they relate to really well. But I think finding one that you can draw an analogy towards and say what is best in world look like there, and then draw comparing that to the work that you do. Um and then setting your goals against those things and trying to make progress against that, I think it's a really fun process.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Yeah, that's a pretty cool experience. And you're right, it it must have been it's like to see people operating and playing at such a high level, and then again, like seeing that there's another level. It's like always that there's always another level, right? It's um another, I think, an interesting psychological, like human trait or or thing, I don't know what to call it exactly. It's like we've all heard the stories of somebody in the Olympics like crushes a world record, and then a lot of other people follow and achieve, like also break the world record. Yeah, uh like have you heard of this before? Or like this is it's like this psychological, like nobody thought it was possible until somebody did it, and then that becomes the standard of what to achieve is like the best, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Yeah, yeah. It's it's humans are awesome. I mean, as soon as possible is like redefined, then all of a sudden what we can do changes as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

I think I I think about that too. It's like also it's like this this idea of like achieving the like thinking and closing the gap for the best of the world is, but it's also interesting to wonder, it's like, well, is there like is there another level we

Breaking Impossible With World Records

SPEAKER_00 48:05

could tap into there?

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah, like that was the the mile, right? I think that's where it happened. Like nobody they said it was impossible and breaking the formative well, and then all of a sudden one person does it, and then 10 more do it within like a couple of months or whichever. And this, I mean, that marathon runner. Can we just for a moment like that? Makes no sense to me running that fast for that long, this under two hour marathon.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

I heard about this. Is this like insane? The guy read there's how fast was it?

SPEAKER_01 48:36

An hour 59 to run 26 miles.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Oh my god, that's what is what's a mile. Uh it's anyway.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

I was thinking about it in kilometers.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah, what is that? What is that? Like, dude, it's just like what is that? It's like 13 miles an hour is how fast you're running.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

It's like I th I don't know if I can I think I can sprint that fast for like a hundred meters, but I'm not sure. But a marathon at that speed is insane.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Yeah, I'm looking it up.

unknown 49:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Like, let's see what that is. Yeah. Yeah, it's yeah, over 13. Yeah, basically, yeah, just over 13 miles per hour. So that what's yeah, like supposed to be doing the math in my head, it's like yeah, okay, so that's an average of under a five-minute mile. Yeah, it's like four four minutes and thirty-five seconds per mile, which isn't like and that used to be you that used to be the world record for one month, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Like dude, that used to be it used to be considered. We were just talking about it. You used to think it was impossible to do a four-minute mile, and now somebody's doing 26 more and a half minute miles. So that now that somebody's broken that, the marathon under two hours, next couple of years, I there'll be a dozen others that do it.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah, uh guys from Kenya. I'm I'm not gonna I I can't. Unfortunately, I don't know how to pronounce his name, so I'm not gonna try, but uh yeah, he's he's uh he just broke it. Yeah, that is nuts.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Yeah, and there was a guy, the guy that finished second broke it too.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

What is that?

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Yeah, humans are awesome.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Is it like do the shoes have anything to do with it? I know they're coming out with like new shoes that like that, you know, they like are they have anything to do with it? Like I know they don't they ban some of these shoes, like some of these new shoes that like propel you or whatever. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Yeah, I mean crazy. Yes, the shoes also just evolution.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Oh, yeah, and like the whole psychological it's 100% part of it, but it's like something I'm also looking at, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

So yeah, that would actually be a good name for a shoe. Evolution, or like the dark Nike Air Darwin or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Yeah, for sure. Wow, wow. Well, MK man, this has been uh a really fun episode. Uh I just I thought it was like super, super interesting, and and just like hearing your story and like different experiences that you've had throughout your life and your psychology behind like business and leadership and and success is really uh interesting and thought-provoking and and valuable to our audience. So I just want to say thank you for coming on today and contributing to the show.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Thanks for having, man. This was fun. I really enjoyed the format and uh yeah, the way our conversation went. And thanks for inviting me. And and love what you're doing here, man. Like, you know, talking to people about their lives, their experiences, how that shows up in terms of the work that they do and what they're most passionate about was a really fun experience

Final Reflections And Thanks

SPEAKER_01 51:39

for me. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

That's awesome.