EP 206: Where Parisian Roots Meet Intuitive Hiring

Victoire Marty grew up in Paris, surrounded by art, history, and a culture that values intuition, which later shaped her approach to hiring for potential rather than pedigree. After studying art history, she went on to become a Talent Acquisition Lead at Lemlist, helping the company scale rapidly while managing an ambitious hiring load with a lean team. This conversation explores how trusting your gut, maintaining high standards, and staying hands-on can drive real impact as teams grow fast.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Victoire

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Victoire Moiti with us. She is the town acquisition lead over at Limlist, uh based out of Paris. So, yeah, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

And thanks for having me today, James.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Yeah, of course. So, how did I do with your name? Did I did I pronounce it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

You did well. I mean, I know it's not uh it's not easy uh with French uh French names, but you did it well.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah, okay. Hopefully pretty close there. But uh well, so anyway, so you you're the company you work for is currently Limlist is is is in uh Paris, but you're actually from Paris, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, exactly. I was born and raised in Paris, all right. Which is, I mean, if I can say super rare.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I don't know if I've actually met anybody that was uh born and raised in Paris. I I I just about everybody I know wants to either go to Paris or has been to Paris. Um, but I don't know if I've actually met somebody born in the city. That's pretty cool.

Life In Paris As A Local

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, I mean like Paris is such a special city, though. So yeah, I'm in uh nice childhood there, growing up, you know, uh as a kid in a beautiful city, such as Paris, you know, where you have uh let's say like everything that uh that you you want except maybe uh the sea and uh more gardens, you know, more green. You know, maybe that was missing uh a bit in Paris. But uh yeah, I mean like super uh super childhood uh growing there. I grew up like in a nice neighborhood called Saint-Germain-des-Pris. It's in the sixth, like it's called like a bit like the intellectual uh area of Paris, you know, where like famous uh readers, painters used to be and learn uh some stuff. So that's great, you know. And uh in a way, like uh a bit like shape my future to be raised there, you know, with uh with my family.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a really cool city. You know, I haven't spent enough time there, uh, but I did spend New Year's Eve there a while ago, and I'll tell you, that was a lot of fun. Um it was a good time. There was a lot of people out like in the streets with champagne bottles, which was yeah, exactly, especially on the Champs-Élysées. Yeah, so I I don't know if this was I think there was actually a lot of locals there. We were underneath the Eiffel Tower just with bottles of champagne drinking. So this was um it was it was pretty no sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

No, no, that's something that we do like French people go and say right, you know, especially Parisian close to the GFL Tower for the New Year, and normally there is fireworks and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah, it felt like I didn't because you know there's there's so many tourists in in Paris that I was wondering like how authentic of an experience that was. But if I remember correctly, it was like we were surrounded by a lot of like French people too. It wasn't just like an international crowd, which was sort of cool. Um yeah, yeah, but not enough time. I would like to go back. I didn't get to really experience the city like a local, you know. Yeah, what's it what's it like? Like I curious like the difference of experiencing as a local for a couple of days versus like really living there. Like, what's the culture really like?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

That's uh that's a good question. How is the culture in Paris? I mean, like I would say Parisians are always in a rush, you know. That's uh for sure, you know, more we're not morning people at all, you know. Uh we start like a bit late, something around 9, 9:30 a.m., you know. So at some point between uh 9 and 9 quarter to nine, you know, like everyone is rushing in the metro on the streets or by bike, you know, that's crazy, you know. Uh what you can get there to go to work. That's something also that we have like Parisians living there, is that you always look up, you know, at the buildings, the streets, this kind of stuff because it's always like when it's sunny, when it's raining, when it's windy, it's always different. And Paris is such a beautiful city that I mean, like even if you're local, you know, you're living there, like you're lucky, you know, to be there and you still enjoy the city. For example, like I I can show you, uh I'll send you some pictures, but um, where I work right now, our office is in Paris, like we're in the tents, which is like a really nice area, but we are like surrounded by terrace. So we have like Montmartre, we have the FL Tower, we have Notre Dame to see, and that's something you know, like I love having a look at, you know, yeah. When I'm tired, let's go and see. And uh, of course, I don't know if I may share that, but uh wine and cheese, it's like it's really it's not a joke. We do enjoy wine and cheese, and the buggett, of course, you know. But uh I mean that's that's really Parisian, you know, especially you know, being on terrace. I don't know, like you came during winter, but uh when spring summer is like really there in Paris, everyone is in terrace, having drinks, living the life, and that's that's super cool to be there.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah, there's so there's so much history, right? So as well. I mean, just like what you were just saying, where your office is located and all of the the everything around you, right?

Museums Family And Seeing History

SPEAKER_00 6:05

It's just it's yeah, I mean, like you can, you know, so that's something that my mom taught me. I don't know if I should share that, but uh when we were a kid, you know, uh when a door was opening from a building or a social was like, okay, go run and keep the door open and go and get inside and see what's in it, you know, in the building. And sometimes there is like amazing like architectures, painting, ceramics, you know, this kind of stuff. And you're like, okay, that's a 19th century, 18th century, 17th century building, you know, like you can see that by who with the wood, or you know, if it was built by someone else, you know, sometimes you have some uh little writing, you know, on it. You know, that's that's super super nice. The building where I was um raised, it's a family building that we have like in the fixed. Um, the apartment where my grandma I was lucky enough to to sorry to grew like close to my grandmother. She was living in the same building uh as me uh with my grandfather, so that was super cool. And the apartment that she was living in was uh Chateaubriand uh apartment, which is a famous uh French reader, you know, like really famous, and there is a little something saying like Chateaubriand used to live there at the second floor of the the building, you know, and in Paris it's like sometimes you're like okay, but it's super common, you know, to see like history, and we love to share the story, you know, like French people.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

So yeah, that's yeah, it's it's incredible. And um, and you would you was it with your your grandmother you would go to the museums pretty frequently going up? Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Yeah, yeah, like a lot. I was like really, really close to my grandmother, and she used to work, you know, uh in a in a museum. She was the director of a museum called Musée de Cluny, which is like a medieval art museum in Paris, close to La Sorbonne, you know, the famous French uh uni. Every Sunday morning she used to took me to the Louvre, you know, and uh like we do like for uh one hour, two hours, you know, depending on uh how tired I was because I was still you know a kid, um a tour of a room, you know, and she was explaining me like some stuff about the art, you know, the movement uh behind it. It was like we started, I think that with uh Egypt, then we went to Romans, then uh you know, medieval art, you know, everything, and it was incredible. That's such a a cherished memory that I have uh with her, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah, well that sounds really special. So she actually was the director at the medieval art museum uh in Paris, which is yeah, exactly. That's pretty cool. So did you spend a lot of time there as well?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

I do, but I did actually not now anymore, but yeah, I did uh I did with her, uh, you know, and she was explaining stuff and sharing some some silly jokes that she did with her friends, you know, there. Uh that's you know, that's uh good memories.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah. So that was actually um you you ended up studying art history.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Exactly. Yeah, that's uh I'll say like funny story. I don't know if it's funny, but um I used to study law, okay, like for two years because I I was thinking, okay, maybe I want to be a lawyer, maybe I want to be a judge, you know. That's something that uh everyone does, and like I'm like everyone, you know. So okay, let's go and like learn uh a bit of uh of law. But actually it wasn't for me like at all. And I was like, okay, what's my passion? Like it's art. I want to work in art, I want to with art, you know, whatever. I want to do something with it, you know. So follow your gut and go there. So I quitted like low. My mom was uh okay, is it a good idea? I don't know, you know, like it's kind of difficult to have some money when you're studying art, you so well, okay. Uh I went there, you know, I studied, and it was, I think, the best years of my life. I mean, learning about art, uh, learning about everything around art, because like it's not only uh about paintings, cultures, you know, ceramics or whatsoever, architecture, it's everything around it, you know, like um politics, uh, country, I don't know, uh maybe illness around happening, you know, in Europe or in the world at this time, geopolitics, geoeconomics, you know, it's amazing. You learn so much when you're studying art.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, yeah. I I'm sure it was an incredible uh opportunity to learn and must have been fascinating. Was there any uh particular uh classes or interests that you had within within that degree? Like what really stood out to you? I yeah, you had mentioned um I think 18th century art as being really impactful for you. Is that is that right?

Quitting Law To Study Art

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really impactful. That's what we call like uh I don't have the word in uh in English, but we called that the Rococo, you know, style, Rococo style. Maybe it's the same, I think. Like this year, the fun this century, like the ancient, like where everything like changed a bit, you know, it was elegant, it was frivolity, like people were more superficial, you know, instead of being like super rational, like painting uh I would say kings, queens, you know, flowers, portraits. No, like we're painting like now, like life, people's life, you know. Uh so everything changed there, like uh also uh sex scenes as well. That's something that was like a bit um surprising, you know, for people at this time. Uh so I studied like that a lot. I did some uh some research, a master in research uh in it, you know, that I presented, you know, at La Sorbonne. So that's something that I really liked. And also um there is another period I did not talk to you about with uh Henri Matisse, which is a French painter that uh I love as well, too. It was like in uh 20, 20th century, if I may say for me, it's more craziness, you know, colors that stood out, like uh paintings, like a bit like Picasso style, you know, close to some some stuff a bit like different, you know, the chair is not really a chair, the floor, the is not really the floor, you know, this kind of stuff. And that's that's amazing. Painted like famous girls named Les Danceurs, and you can see like in it the movement, you know, that's something special. And I think again, that's for me, uh, I think that uh art is really something where you follow your instinct when you want to paint, you know. It's not something now like how it used to be, where you need to like to reproduce at the beginning, but 18th century and such as Henri Matisse, it's like all coming from the guts, you know, like okay, let's try something new, let's innovate.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah, I love I love that. That's um it sounds really fascinating. And so what were your who are your favorite artists?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

I would say Henri Matisse.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Uh I love. And there is uh there is one like I completely forget uh his name. Actually, he's American. Uh no, he's not American, but he's uh he's in New York at the moment. It's Mondrian.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Mondrian. I don't know if you're knowing but he is uh at the moment, you know, like and that's something I used to do, not now a lot, but uh traveling, you know, in specific countries to go and see museums. That's something I really enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah, it sounds well. You I I living in Europe is just such an incredible opportunity, right? Because there's just so much art and history. Do you have you traveled to a lot of different countries to go to different museums?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

And yeah, yeah, yeah. I like uh I did uh a lot, you know. Um there was something called in the 18th century, actually called the Grand Tour, which was like uh traveling for the young boys, you know, from uh like English families, like well-raised English families during the what we call the Grand Tour. So they were traveling to to Greece, to Italy, to France, uh, you know, like many, many countries to discover, you know, the art and discover a bit themselves, you know, apart from that family. And that's something I did traveling to these countries as well, not in the same mindset, but to discover, you know, art and culture. Because I think that you cannot stay in your own culture, you have to discover to grow and learn a bit. So yeah, I did actually travel a lot.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, yeah, that's that's awesome. Yeah, I feel like you know it's it's interesting. I'm speaking with a lot of talent acquisition leaders and and folks that are in our space, right? Working for really fast-growing competitive organizations, and there's so many folks that um grew up in like multicultural environments um or really value learning and are curious about different cultures that have studied art history or cultural studies or something that is in a similar uh kind of cultural, there's like a cultural dynamic to what they what they've studied, which is pretty cool. It's um you know, it's interesting to see the parallels. And now it's like I've spoken with so many people in town acquisition, and you know, so many of them they they're very passionate about uh traveling, learning about different culturals, cultures. Uh it's it's sort of a common theme that I'm seeing across a lot of leaders. Um so it's it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

I think oh good.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Sorry, no, no, no, I was just about to say like it's super helpful as well, because I mean on a daily basis, we're talking with different people with different backgrounds, different cultures, you know, and it's easier to adapt to the people, to the person in front of you when you you know, like uh a bit uh more than only uh what you have uh around you or only in front of you, I think I would say.

Rococo Matisse And Artistic Instinct

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, I totally, I really I agree. I agree. So, like frankly, the like different degrees, you know, it's it's interesting. We you talked about like one of the topics that we're gonna be talking about a lot today is you focus on trajectory versus resume. Like when you're like looking at evaluating talent, and it's I'm excited to talk more about that. And it has me thinking, though, it has me thinking about like the types of degrees that folks get and why they get them. And at least in the United States, I I don't think it's necessarily like this as much as in Europe, but you can tell me. Um, but there's this big emphasis in the United States for people to get like business degrees, so like business administration, marketing, finance, accounting, maybe maybe data analytics is under the business school sometimes, like not like data science, but like data analytics. And it's just sort of interesting. Like, I think, of course, there are value in those degrees, but frankly, unless you do want to become a okay, an accountant, right? Or like a CFO, okay, I get I get the desire to have an undergrad in business. Otherwise, you know, I feel like there's just other degrees that are way more valuable. Frankly, I feel like art art history is way more valuable, cultural studies, anything related to like anthropology, uh, anything related to philosoph you know, philosophy, um are just so incredibly valuable as well. And I I think uh you know, it's just it's interesting when I look at like a resume, like it's it's uh I'm always fascinated when I get to come across a candidate who took a slightly different path or had different interests outside of you know business, right? Um definitely I always like to slow down and learn more there, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:06

No, no, I I fully agree with you. Like I have like uh not a typical trajectory, you know, for someone who joined like uh talent acquisition. I used to study law, I moved to Hart, uh, then uh I was working uh as a clerk in an auction house, then I was working in museums, you know, then I moved to TA because of we don't know what, you know, like surprise, you know, uh that came. Someone like, okay, maybe you need to try and see and go. And I tried, I loved it. So I'm the typical person, not with the typical background. So I think that I'm more open to different backgrounds rather than people having like uh degrees or raised perfect resumes. It's uh not on that that I mean if I may say that we have to judge people, you know, if I say judge. Uh but uh yeah, I think that's something completely um we have to be open-minded about people, you know, not on our daily life, you know, and personal life, but when you're recruiting, I think it's more um, okay, which was this person past, you know, and what did he do, what did he learn, and why did he change there or why did he quit or whatsoever, whether than okay, he stayed for three years there, okay, so that's perfect, and two years there, you know. I mean, who cares? You know, like I think it's important, you know, to to get and understand the trajectory of someone rather than only well.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

It's it's I just find it really interesting because it's like, for instance, like with your background, right? Like you studied art history, and there's a story there, so it's like if I was learning about you professionally, it's like, oh, cool. So you got into art history, how did that come about? And then you say, Well, I was studying law and then I transitioned art history, and and for us, for everyone tuning in too, could you tell us more about that? Because you you talked about like your intuition and and that being a driving force. So I'd love to hear more about it because that in and of itself, like this is a perfect example. It's like, oh wow, there's something really interesting, there's an interesting story here, there's an interesting perspective here, right? And and I love that, like, those are the types of folks that I really want to work with because it's there's that level of introspection and and thought toward making a pivot and doing something like that that I think is really cool. So, but what so you you mentioned it was like it was following your intuition, right? Like you that was the primary driver. Can you tell us more about that?

Travel Culture And Recruiting Empathy

Trajectory Over Resume In Hiring

When Intuition Prevents Bad Hires

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah, exactly. You know, like I was studying law and I was like, hmm, there is something off, it's maybe not for me, you know. Maybe it's been two years, but I'm not happy, something's missing, and um, I want to be happy in life, as everyone, I think. So it was okay, what's again, what's my passion? It's art, you know. What can I do with it? I was I don't know, but I know that's something I want to study, you know, that's something I want to do. So I was like, okay, that's your instinct. Your guy is saying, like, okay, go and study historial art, you know. So I was okay, let's go, let's give it a try. You never know, and we see how it goes. And I mean, it was like the best years of my life, you know, as I said uh earlier, learning, uh, learning a lot. Uh, I learned also also on a personal level that trusting my gut was great for me, you know, good intuition there. Um, and today, if I didn't quit, I would say like low to move to history of art. If I didn't work as a clerk and in a museum, I wouldn't be there at all. You know, so my intuition and my gut like led us to this conversation. That's something amazing because I wasn't supposed to do that at all. And because I was like not bored is not the the good the good word, uh, but because I was like unhappy, I would say like because that's true, unhappy about working, you know, for museums that I decided to switch. And actually, my if you want the the full story, my godmother, you know, she's a she's a head hunter, and she was like, okay, you have to go and do an assessment to see what you are gonna do next. Because you cannot be like, okay, I don't like what I'm doing now. I'm unhappy and I'm gonna do something else. You need like a plan, you know, like it's all about plans, you know. Um, and I was okay, but let's do this and try, you know. So I went uh to an assessment in uh actually in a in a firm, you know, in a head hunting firm. Uh and I was like, okay, you did you think about doing anything I was um nope and they were like okay you have to do this this is for you we don't have any openings right now but uh this is what you need to focus and this is what you need to to find as a job you know you like you have to do that and was okay well I'll give it a try you know and um they called me like a week later saying like okay if we open a job for you are you willing to join us because like we believe that's made for you and was okay let's go and this is how my journey started you know like trusting my gut led me to something like that I'm super happy and today I'm not imagining like a day without recruitment being a TA you know having a talk with different people on a daily basis getting to know them their story their background and they teach me like a lot you know they taught me a lot I love that yeah yeah it's it's really cool it's um that's why I love doing like this podcast to being in town acquisition it's like it's a people business and you it it's it's all about people so it's nice being able to like you know connect with like minded folks and learn from other people and um you know slow down and kind of remember why we're here you know yeah and what we love about it. So I agree how does intuition show up in how you hire today like how much do you really trust your gut in hiring because I I I have I like I feel like I've come full circle on this like my perspective on this topic I'm curious to learn from you like how much do you really trust your gut hmm I would say hundred percent today like really uh hundred percent and why that's uh that's a good question I would say I've learned a lot you know I've done some mistakes and it's okay that's how like you learn but sometimes because I have not like listened to my gut I made some mistakes you know and uh maybe I can share uh share one like I don't know if people want to hear that but I think it I mean it's it's okay you know to share your mistakes too we hired someone like I think it was in marketing like a gross leader or whatsoever and like it was like the the perfect guy during the interviews like the business case was amazing and strong background a really good storyteller and everyone was aligned but my gut were like something fell off and sometimes it's I cannot explain it. I know something is off I cannot like point it out but I know something is off so what I did I ignored it and I completely like followed group validation like 100% and what happened next obviously there was an important position that we had to fill. So two months later we had to get rid of the person because it wasn't like the fit it was smart but not deep and it didn't have the any ownership and what was the cost of this money velocity and team energy you know and um when I'm thinking about this person you know like right now in the interview like I'm always thinking about it you know sometimes when I need to do some introspection like okay stop focus think about what you missed there and why did you didn't you listen to yourself because I didn't believe in myself at the moment you know like a switch of career woman in tech that's sometimes you know it can be like arch and complicated and I was like okay no and now like I'm pretty pretty much like 100% sure of myself you know I do believe in myself and now I'm like if there is a doubt there is no doubt okay that's completely something that uh that I have uh in mind and so now like my gut is uh I would say maybe a way of hiring not a way of living but a way of hiring for me you know and um I can give you like another example a counter one like something who I did well about it. Uh we like at the company where I'm working at uh we hired like I joined like more than two years ago so two years ago when I started uh a developer you know not the flashy one but uh what I saw in in him that the rest of the team didn't saw was like this guy like was really thinking versus the performing he was structured in his reasoning and like had a lot of curiosity like for the tech but also for the business okay but uh I mean as some tech can be sometimes he was like really shy so he didn't show uh like the best version of himself so they were like it's gonna be complicated to communicate with him so how we're gonna do this kind of stuff yeah it was like oh guys trust me like go for it so I pushed for him like I pushed like go go go and the outcome now is the he's the best uh engineer that we have in the team you know so I mean that's that's a great story you know like to to talk about so yeah I mean I would say today that's the perfect sentence that I've shared with you and that you've said earlier like I recruit trajectories not resumes you know that's that's something I mean that I do you know and I will always advocate and advise people like trust your guts if there is something go for it listen to yourself and if you need a moment just take five minutes focus and listen to what you're feeling and even if you're not sure you know I'm lucky enough I can share a lot with my manager you know she's the chief of staff so she has a lot on her plate but though I mean like she always listened to me and now like when we have to hire someone uh if I'm not in the process because uh of um any reason she's always like okay can you meet the person can you go and watch the recording and give your advice what do you think of this person you know and I don't want like to what we say like in French is envoy design meaning like send myself some flowers you know and saying like that I'm perfect but uh each person that we've recruited that I wasn't involved in the process with the company like for the last two years we had to end them and I mean because they wasn't they weren't a fit I'm not saying that 100% of my uh recruitment you know stayed but uh mainly like uh yeah 95 you know whatsoever but that's only numbers but um yeah I mean trust yourself you know no one knows better than yourself do you feel like it's like what your when your gut's telling you something's off do you feel like it's usually something feels off with like the behavioral fit or did you or is it like like what I'm just like I'm I'm curious in what ways like when you see when your gut feels like something's off and then somebody doesn't work out like are there any common traits or or things that happen that you've been able to uncover? Ego ego yeah I would say like I I would go for ego but um I mean no like when I'm you know having a a talk with people and interviewing with them um I talk with them but I'm also looking at them you know the way they move the way they smile the way they use their hands to speak whatsoever and that's also signals you know that you can use and where you can get to know someone but I would say sometimes uh like always you have to read through people because during an interview you're always giving like the best version of yourself you know you want to shine and that's normal I would say like reading through people and the ego coming in when you have like um I'm the kind of person who prefers someone with a low ego you know maybe because I'm this person you know yeah but uh it's nice as well you know to have some ego and to be like that not no ego but low ego you know and someone when you are sometimes sorry when you have too much your behavior with with teammates your behaviors with uh clients or with whoever you want you know it shows and that's not something like you cannot do because I mean like you're representing you know like uh a part of the company whatsoever when your team like is relying on you as well but you're not nice to them because of your ego I mean no that's not for us I would say like that right now sometimes you know you need this on some position like a big strong ego and it's okay but not always I would say yeah yeah there's also like a difference between I mean I don't know if you would is if confidence and ego are exactly the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I mean maybe there's like a healthy level of ego I don't I don't know I mean those are two different concepts sort of but like having a being well grounded and having confidence is is important. Yeah but yeah the ego or what I like I don't know and and Fred if you if you guys use the term arrogance is that a yeah I'll go that's the you know avoiding that it's like the the big ego or arrogant uh that that's the it's like one of the least attractive kind of behavioral traits to to work with uh to be on the same team you know yeah and especially you know I think that in sales yeah that's where you see the most and sometimes like oh why how you know like you cannot be like that you cannot behave like that.

Ego Signals And Sales Interviews

Scaling Lemlist Hiring Bootstrapped

Automation And Making Managers Own Hiring

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Right. But I mean some people do but uh yeah it's it's always tough like with the salesperson because every once in a while too you'll get like a really strong seller who like their personality is just challenging right and I don't know more times than not I'm just like look I don't care how much you can like I'm not dealing with all that because we can find people there you can you know just hold out find the person who's easy to work with because that's important too it's not just about our ability to execute in our own lane but we particularly for scale ups like you know fast growing companies it's expanding you need to be collaborative yeah and it's complicated you know like for me for example working for like recruiting like in europe versus recruiting in the US it's completely different you know it's like it's not the same people are not the same interview are not the same at all you know also you know like what you have the maybe if you have a a plan or some questions or some stuff like that you know sometimes I have some but in the US it's not at all you know like in France mainly and when I was like interviewing like uh salespeople I was under the impression that they were all like the best you know uh the US people oh yeah the the US people know how to sell themselves and like it's it's that is a thing you have to like yeah we have to learn from them definitely from you guys you know this is the best salesperson I spoke with yeah no they like they yeah they know how to sell themselves in interviews very because I've recruited internationally as well and even like our the vocabulary like that Americans would use in interviews like they use like really big like um over the top language you know like everything's incredible or extraordinary or you know everything is just the max right exactly you know and I was like okay how am I gonna do that if everyone is the best like selling themselves like like no one else you know and I mean I came out like with one question you know okay so you're the best you achieved like this and that did you make like president club this year or last year and they were like PC oh no uh but because so okay you're not the best you know if you didn't make it right but they're they're they're counter they're so good at objection handling well no because of XY and Z and da da da da da yeah exactly I so I like yeah when I was when I was doing a lot of like hands on like recruiting GTM I would just I because that was a challenge that I mean you know I I started um I don't know if I told you I own an embedded recruiting and RPO firm in the tech industry so okay cool I've um my company has uh we've helped over 200 tech companies scale like GTM technical teams internationally like you name it and the the what I would end up doing with a lot of the GTM talent sales talent is I would ask them like a hundred questions about their numbers like inside and out to really understand their quotas and their performance and and then I would ask so at the end of the process when we check your references just so you know I have to I had I need references from previous direct managers and I would just say so like at your previous employer would your direct manager be able to confirm the numbers that we discussed like would they be able to to do that and then you and then you hear the oh wait well no I don't know if they're still there I don't know where they are anymore they may not even be on this continent I think they moved to like Australia you start to get that kind of stuff and it's like okay well next yeah exactly yeah yeah that's funny right now you're working for a pretty fast growing company that's expanding internationally right yeah exactly so what's like tell me about 2026 what are you working on I mean like 2025 was crazy okay so so you know to give you a bit of a bit of context we're like uh 100 bootstrapped as well so it explained that I have um many many liberties as well that I don't have you know with a board or whatsoever or things to to follow you know so that's super cool so well 2025 was crazy we hired um more than 90 people yeah yeah and I did uh 85 on my own so it was like uh yeah 85 hires on your own yeah what kind of hires these tiring tiring year for me what types of rules did you how did you do that that's incredible marketing sales uh like old GTN tech you know I worked hard like really really hard because I mean I'm sorry to say that but uh I don't have like many trusts in uh hiring firms because I I come from one so I know how it works yeah you're like you're like you've worked at a restaurant you're like you know what happened yeah exactly I know the tricks of it so um yeah I did that mainly on my own and I recruited someone to join my team as well okay so like he joined I think in June or July but uh it was like super super helpful for me you know to to have someone into on board and he's more on the tech side now uh of it uh because our stack is a bit particular but um yeah and this year so now 2026 is like not as many hires as uh as last year or maybe you know we never know um but uh we have like uh I would say uh 40 to 50 jobs you know in mind it's all again GTM and tech plus we're expanding in the US so maybe if everyone is uh someone is listening to the podcast I'm looking for a GTM in the US and for some sales as well but not crazy sales please again you know regular ones but um yeah it's super cool because um we also acquired uh a company that joined us I mean like it's uh it's clap it's I mean if I can explain two words it's uh a recorder for uh sales whatsoever with AI integrated so I'm using it on a daily basis and that's time saving as well I'm not a huge fan uh I'm going back there but of uh AI in recruitment I'm using it a lot but um when it's needed you know not like crazy like reading resumes or this kind of stuff no I prefer to do it my way maybe takes more times but um I prefer you know like to be transparent with candidates you know like I'm working on it I'm working on you and for you guys so yeah sorry going back we acquired um club so it's helping me you know uh recording having a bit of AI resuming uh the interviews so it's it's nice so it's I won't say it's double of work but as they are scaling as well because they had like only uh a year of existence when we acquired them maybe more recruitment for them to come to uh we hired for example their first marketer um last week so yeah it's gonna be I think uh not um as crazy as last year was you know yeah but uh still it's gonna be crazy and um what we do like at the um at Lemlist we have a way of recruiting which is not like I mean everyone wants the best that's for sure you know no one wants uh B players definitely uh but uh we want like only a players as everyone so uh we have to I would say um hustle for them you know so we want like some people who create like for me like clarity someone who moves fast someone who solves problems directly someone who takes feedback like instantly and apply them feedback that's something that we can talk about too if you want I'm such a huge fan of feedback that's I think that's the best thing ever don't keep something from yourself just share there is a way to share some feedback with someone but please do it if you can correct something right now that's even better so yeah feedback really important for us and uh someone who hates wasting time I would say um why am I saying that because right now it's difficult you know I don't know like in the US but uh in Europe we think that uh the market is slightly different from uh from it was you know there is like um there was like more candidates and uh less job offers and less job offers and more candidates and now like it's kind of complicated with candidates I think like in Europe you know like when you want someone really really good I uh if I um if I may say so that's something that uh that we're looking for and we do like recruit and eight players and how do we see ourselves you know uh at the at LEM list as athletes you know I would say like not competing or whatsoever but uh athletes you're always always always in the run always training always learning always doing something you know always improving yourself always teaching to someone or learning from someone that that's something that I really appreciate you know about the company is that um I learn a lot from people you know for example like there is a trend right now with cloud cowork you know I think that everyone uh knows uh about it you know and um yes um I'm using a bit of AI but it's not you know where I'm the best at so I asked uh a product manager who's like on top of it like can you talk to me a bit about it can you show me can you teach me how can I uh improve my work with it and that's something as well super cool being able to have some people around you teaching you some stuff and that's something I love uh about about the company so yeah for 2026 I definitely want to hire some people who can teach me some stuff in the team as well yeah that that's awesome yeah it sounds like you guys are you're building a really cool culture I still find it's like incredible that you hire that many people for like a scale up tech company to hit that type of volume I okay can you help me how can you share about more about how you actually like let's get a little more tactical how did you manage that type of recload like I just don't because you have to review all of the inbounds you got to schedule all of the people you got to do all of the screenings you have to do all the hiring manager intakes feedback calls offer negotiations I mean like do you have any other recruiters on your team that were supporting or were you literally like doing all of it yeah I was like mainly the only one and uh my uh that's incredible yeah my teammate uh joined me uh as I said like in in June but only on the um on the tech part so the time to onboard him you know and what's every was like he started working in September I found working mainly he was working but uh he worked uh like he was fully onboarded uh in September a lot of work I would say don't count your hours I mean you have to to like your job you know and to believe in the company and I do believe in them list like if I didn't I I wouldn't have done that you know uh because sometimes you know you have to be like okay that's um my personal life okay that's gonna be Apart for a while because I need to focus and hire more and more, you know, and um a lot of automatization, definitely. I'm using um an ITS, like uh if I may name it, called Ashby, who's helping me like a lot with automatization, plus something that I did, uh, and I'm like really proud of that. I took hiring manager how to be autonomous, you know. Like, I'm not running after you like guys, no, like you need to do your job, that's your job, you know. Like, I'm here to coordinate the recruitment, but not to hire the people, you know. That's your job, that's for your team, guys. So, like 48 hours max to answer to a candidate, ref check for every uh every recruitment to make sure that we're not mistaking. If you need anything, you just ping me, you know. And we had to recruit like in Europe and in the US, so different time zones as well. So you have to organize everything between people, you know, too. So sometimes like you start working at uh say at eight and you end at uh I would say uh like 11 p.m. and you're like, ooh, it's yeah, it's a lot, you know. But yeah, but now you know, I'm taking a step back, having a look at the team, you know. Uh last year we went like every year we went, we are going on um on a team building, you know. Uh last year we went uh we went to Spain in Tenerife, and um we had like uh a talk with everyone, you know, and our CEO Charles were like, okay, uh people were hired in uh like uh 2023, uh please uh stand up uh 2024, blah blah blah. And I joined so two years ago, and when I saw like people standing, it was like the three-quarter of the of the people you know of the company was like, wow, I did that myself, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool, right? Yeah, that's super cool, you know. And the company is growing because without recruitment, like the company cannot grow, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, and what when you're hiring 80 85 people a year, I hope you're good with names.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah, everybody's walking up to you, and you're just like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm like, that's amazing to see that, and people are happy, people are proud to be part of the company as well, you know. So we're all on the same path to achieve something great, and I really like that, and I think that's something who helped me through like the hard time because recruitment, we know that it's up, it's ups and down, you know. Oh, yeah, and when you have to recruit like a lot, sometimes you're tired, but when you remember why you're doing it and for who, because I mean, like your leaders, you know, they have to show you the way. And I'm like, okay, okay, it's okay. Five minutes, ten minutes, an hour. Okay, perfect. Let's go, let's do this, you know. And I'm lucky enough to be in a company where I can like organize myself so my work-life balance, I can like if I want, I can start at uh I would say like noon if I want, and go to the gym before. You know, if it's better for my health and for my balance, I can do that. And I think that's that helped me a lot.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

So flexibility, yeah, yeah, for sure. Nice. And so, you know, one thing that you shared with me for our recording that I would love to cover uh cover with you is just some there's some takeaways essentially that you had like some things that you care about uh as it pertains to recruiting and building companies. Um, and you shared four different kind of phrases, if you will, with me. And and the first one you shared is alignment over talent. Can you talk to us about what that means?

Alignment Depth Ownership And Humanity

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah, I think that you know, when you when you you're joining a company, you joining a team, you're joining a manager, uh definitely you have some talent. If you're like in the process, if you are there, there is a reason. When out there, there is a job for you. But I'm I'm a strong believer that you need to be to be more aligned with the mission, you know, of the company, uh, the mission of your team, your mission, uh, rather than being someone just only talented. I believe that you cannot teach someone to be aligned with what you think. It's personal, you know, it's personal belief, talent. You can teach people, and it's like to learn stuff, and being aligned for me is more important than being talented, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

It's like being a good team player, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yeah, I mean, like I would say like obviously team player, but um understanding the business, uh, the fact that we're in a scalar where everything moves fast, really fast, and you have to adapt to adjust yourself. And I won't be there like holding your hand and uh be okay, so you need to do this and that. No, you know what you have to do, so go for it. And that's um that's uh funny stuff, you know. Like when I have like feedback about um the interviews that I'm uh doing with some people, you know, when they join the company, I'm always asking, okay, or maybe uh uh as well, you know, by mail, but like give me some feedback, share some feedback about like uh the interview. Uh was it good enough? Was it uh easy? Was it hard? Share something with me. And people are like, you're always like pushing people back, you know, like don't come to the company, don't join if this or that. If you're this kind of person, don't don't come, don't join. And I'm always looking for the alignment, and that's something now that's in me, you know, and that will always advocate for it. Be aligned with with us, you're gonna be successful, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Right, yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. And then there's uh a few other ones that I I wanted to talk to you about. You also talked about this one, and I think this also gets back to how you think about interviewing and like focusing on trajectory versus resume, but you talk about depth over polish as being one of your core takeaways in terms of how you think about hiring as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yeah, I think that's something you know, like important as well. Uh how can I be nice saying that? Like being polish, like it's not what we want today. We want someone deep, want someone who goes in depth, you know, of uh of what he's doing, someone again who does something with his gut, you know, going back again to the to the gut feeling, not to be like everything doesn't have to be perfect in a shiny word world, you know. When I'm actually again in uh interviewing people, I'm always asking them about their mistakes, the time they failed, what they learned from it. That's something I want to know. Yeah, that's something I want them to share with me.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

I I think like the the other aspect of that, or when I hear Death of Repolish or the what what it reminds me of is like when I'm interviewing people, probably particularly maybe even it's more of an American thing when it comes to like salespeople, but there's like the pre-recorded responses, you know, where it's like people are just sort of like their interview track, and that's I'm I'm pretty intentional about asking questions that I know they haven't heard before because I I try to get them out of that like autopilot and into critical thinking, yeah. So I I do ask questions that their responses usually are hopefully oh, that's a good question, or or there's that pause of like they're really thinking because it throws them off track. Not like I'm not intentionally trying to throw people off track, but I I am not I'm not trying to trick them, but I'm trying to get them off the you know the autopilot track, if that makes sense because that's where I try to find out if there's depth there, like because anybody can sound good if they say the same thing 20 times in a row. I mean, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 53:03

Like exactly. But I fully agree with you. Like, we don't want to throw people off the cliff, we want them like to actually to think, you know, right, and to be like truthful, like maybe even to themselves, and um make me think of something. I don't know if you've uh witnessed that yet, or someone around you or TA of if we you talked about it, but something like really crazy happened to me. Um, I was um I mean interviewing uh a candidate, you know, and she was having a tool, you know, listening to me and typing all of the answers for her, and she was like only reading the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

You could just tell.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

I could tell the eyes, you know, and at the end I asked because I was like, what's happening? You know, like this is weird. Can you give me can you give me two minutes, please? I need to think. And sometimes she was typing, and I was like, Am I going crazy? Something is going is going on there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

That's so weird. Yeah, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Yeah, that's was insane. I remember inside sales in Colombia. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Yeah, it's so crazy. Yeah, that's wild. That's wild. I um I like I so I'll do like um because we're I'm hiring a lot right now. Well, obviously, for my customers, we're always hiring, but um also we're hiring internal recruiters, and so because we do something a little different because we have like an embedded model, so we like our recruiters essentially operate as if they were our customers' internal recruiters, so they're really fully embedded within a customer organization. And so we have to recruit like great senior recruiters who are really highly quality, they're not just like pushing volume top of funnel resumes, stuff like that. It's not like traditional agency, and and so I have to ask them questions like I ask I I take it in like a different direction. Like, I'll I'll talk to a recruiter, and I'll like one of my questions, I'll ask them questions that they haven't received before because like I just want to get a sense of their critical thinking and behavioral skill set, and it's stuff that I feel like they probably couldn't type into AI. I'll just be like, hey, look, like if you were promoted into the head of your department tomorrow, or sometimes like CEO of the company tomorrow, what would you double down on? What's working? What would you change and why? Because I want to think about like how they think critically, how self-aware they are of like their role within the company. Like, I I really try to get a sense that I focus on the strategic critical thinking of their you know ability to distinguish opportunities and challenges and these types of things, and it's uh again, it's kind of cool to see people like, oh, wait a second, like I really gotta think about this, you know.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Yeah, no, that that that's crazy. And you you talked about something that's uh I think that's rid for me it's really important, you know, in in recruitment. You talked about uh quantity, you know, like people being like pushing and doing a lot of quantity, but I think really like quality is so much better than quantity, like definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

But all of the tools, everything that's coming out is pushing volume right now, like yeah, more volume, more candidates, more messaging, more output. Yeah, it's like calm down. Everybody wants everybody wants quality, but it's like everything that we're we're trying to solve for is like we can like is just volume, as volume that's where everybody's heads like, well, if we have more and more volume, we'll get more quality. It's like, well, no, it's like you set to go deeper, as you said, like with people.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Yeah, we we need to go like deeper with people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

You also talked about like ownership over comfort. Yeah, explain to us what you mean by by or over ownership over comfort.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

I mean, own your work, don't stay comfortable, like oh okay, like I can do this, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna stop there. If you can go deeper and own something on a subject on your own, like okay, I want to create a a pipeline of whatsoever candidates without using uh AI, or I want to build uh something with AI, go for it. Just don't be comfortable in your work, it's not gonna bring you anything, I think, in my opinion. Push more, always hem higher. That's something that I'm meaning when you need to own rather than stay in comfort when having your own comfort. Have some targets, some goals for yourself. Yeah, that's where you're gonna learn the most.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Yeah, I love it. I mean, yeah, it's like finding people that are okay with being uncomfortable and stretching and not growing complacent. Yeah, that's that's huge, particularly for operating on startup scale-ups, right? Yeah, and and the other the other one that you shared, like your fourth like key takeaway was like holding high standards without losing humanity. Yeah, pretty good one.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Wow, yeah. You know, sometimes you're like, what's happening to humanity? You know, you know, something is uh is going on. Like people uh can be really disrespectful, and still you have to keep like high standards. You're the face of the company, actually. You're the first person that people are seeing, you're the first impression they're gonna have of the company. I'm always saying I cannot show up with a bun in my hoodie or whatsoever. So um people are taking time to interview, to talk with me and to meet with the company. So I have to do the same for them, but uh sometimes it's so complicated. Like sometimes I have sometimes one time I had a guy uh who showed up uh with no shirt. What? No shirt on, no shirt on, no shirt on, and I was like, okay, can you can you go grab a tea or whatever, you know, hoodie? Like, I don't mind, but please do something, you know. And that's something I was like, okay, that's weird, that's super weird.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Or did you start to lose faith in humanity at that moment?

unknown 59:16

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Like, okay, come on, don't do that. What I'm gonna expect for the next call to happen, but um, yeah, I mean, like, high standards, it's super important because I mean, first person they talk to, and you wanna sometimes like for people, and mainly we talked about that a bit earlier, but you know, about resumes and this kind of stuff of per person who don't have like the perfect trajectories at perfect and have like no, you know what whatsoever they've done in their life when they teach themselves, you know, how to do something. Sometimes this first goal can mean a lot, uh, a lot more than with someone with a perfect resume, you know, like okay, they do believe in me, they saw something in me. Okay, so I'm like, I think that I owe them being not perfect for them because no one is perfect, and actually I'm definitely not perfect, but uh I owe them like having standards when rather than being like uh okay, just uh having losing faith in humanity and in candidates, no shows sometimes when you have like uh a complicated day, you know, in the many, many interviews like uh no shows or candidates like talking like arch to you, or you know, this kind of stuff. I'm like, why am I doing this work?

Redefining Success And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

And after that, I have an amazing person, so you know that's uh that the perks working in recruitment, yeah, yeah, definitely ups and downs as well, right? Yeah, so it can be messy, can be a little bit in the people business, yeah. Um, well, so I mean, like I, you know, it at this point in your life, you've had a lot of a lot of different experiences, and you know, you've been in town acquisition now uh at this specific company for a few years helping them scale very aggressively with a very lean team, it sounds like which is really impressive. I'm curious to get a sense at this point in your career or like in in life, right? Like, do you feel like your definition of success has started to evolve then maybe where it was at like the beginning of your career, or how do you think about like your values and kind of your what you're focused on in terms of how you define success in the future?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

That's uh a really good one. Uh that's a really good one because I was thinking about it like uh I think a few days back. I don't know if it's the same in uh in the US, you know, but um in France, uh we teach you that uh success when you're working is having a team, managing a team. And I was like, okay, so I'm gonna be successful when I'll be managing, you know, my own team, and I'll have a XYZ uh number of people working uh under me, but actually not at all. I think that now how I would define success is how is my impact defined, you know, how I can impact my company, how am I helping them? And that's not something only managing or being able to, you know, that's um what can I do? And sometimes an IC can have like a much more important impact rather than a manager, like who's not like hands-on at all. And I think that for me, success is also like sometimes you need to you're able to take a step back and see what's wrong instead of pushing yourself into something, just take a step back. Maybe you're gonna be late for something, but it's okay. Just go and see how you can work on this and have a better impact for your company, for your team, and teach people as well. Share with them what you learned, you know, and always uh teach them like the mistake that you've made so they they won't make them too. I think that's how it would define success now, definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

And as you think toward the future, I'm I'm curious to get a sense for how you want to continue to develop professionally as a person. I mean, maybe we could start just professionally, like what are uh some of those like milestones that you or or just values that you want to continue to embody? I mean, I was curious, like, how do you think about your progression at this point and what the next several years are gonna look like?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

Hmm. That's uh that's a good one. And like I had this introspection uh actually in December, you know, we have our annual reviews, and so I'm always thinking, okay, what did I achieve last year and what I want for myself in the next years, you know? Yeah I'm not so sure yet of what I want. I know that my mission for now, like at Lem list, is not uh is not over, you know. Um I had um like some uh other job offers to work in other companies and to help help them scale, but I think that my job there is not done. So there is some stuff that I still uh need to do. Um do I want a bigger team? You know, is it is it something that I want? I'm not so sure, you know, definitely big right. I love you know, like not working on my own, but uh having a smaller team also. Sorry for saying that, but uh is less problems as well. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

Oh, it's easier. I mean, so in in certain ways it's easier, it's yeah, you have to work harder in other ways, but you know, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

I mean, if you're okay with the workload, I mean it's definitely you know, but you have many more other advantages, so yeah, but um what I want next, I'm pretty much sure that um I want to keep building, you know. I still want to be hands-on, definitely, but I think that my next challenge would be like the first year, you know, building from the ground. Because uh I arrived, you know, at Lemlis, we were like already 30-ish, you know. Um, so there was already some people there, but now I want to really like build something from the ground, you know. I think that would be like uh my uh my next step.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

That's really cool. What about like holistically as a person? Like, how do you see yourself like what's really important to you as a whole human being, not like just you know talent acquisition lead? Like, but um, what does what is success gonna look like, you know, in terms of like who you want to become holistically, like career being part of that? But um just kind of curious based on this part of your life and like where you are in your journey, like what type of person are you striving to become now?

Fertility Journey And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

Yeah, a happy person, I would say. Um as everyone, you know, like uh I wanna I want to be happy and I think that uh everyone wants that, but um my job is teaching me um to care also about others, and that's something I wanna keep having in being you know someone who cares about people. Um, and I've shared that uh with you too, but uh I want to be a mom, but it's kind of complicated for my husband and I. So we're like on a um fruit, what we call fertility journey. So uh going on rounds and rounds of uh IVF. So I mean, biggest dream I would say is uh for that uh to happen for us to be parents. So yeah, I would. Say, like be be a mom, you know, and still care for for people.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

I love it. It's been uh it's been really nice getting to know you and learning about your journey. And um I I just find your your background fascinating everywhere from like where you grew up to studying art history to your approach to town acquisition. And frankly, just like I I so I love I love everything you we were talking about, like um you know, trusting your gut and your intuition. I feel like a lot of folks we kind of moved away from that because there's so much like skepticism out there about like, oh, well, you know, it can be wrong, it can be this and that. Yeah, I've just I've seen I've seen it both ways, and I think, of course, like we do need, of course, structured data, these types of things, and also like you have to trust your intuition, your gut, like, and I think that that's just incredibly important, and so I love that, and just every everything about this conversation has been a lot of fun. Um, and so I just wanted to say I'm good. I'm I'm glad you're glad you enjoyed it too. Um, because it's it's been great. And I I just want to say thank you for joining us on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

And thanks for having me. Like, I really enjoyed, and I wasn't expecting to have like uh to have uh so much fun. I mean, like, you know, I we had a good laugh, so that's uh that's great. And again, thanks uh thanks for having me, James.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

Yeah for sure. And for everybody tuning in, thank you for joining us today, and we'll see you next time.