EP 197: This TA Power Couple Shares How They Raise the Bar to Excellence

Darien May, Head of Global Talent Acquisition at Eventbrite, and Jasmin May, Head of Talent at Verse, share how growing up in a military family shaped their perspective on excellence. The conversation connects disciplined standards, putting people first, and staying close to what matters most. In addition to sharing their story, they share their top TA takeaways from working in TA roles at startups and at Google. 

Book mentioned: Outliers: The Story of Success by Malcolm Gladwell

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. I'm really excited about today. We have Jasmine and Darien May with us, which is the first husband-wife team that we've had on the show. So it's uh it's gonna be it's gonna be really nice to switch it up and get to know you guys. Thanks for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Thank you for reaching out.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Yeah, yeah, of course. And um, let's just like let me do like a very brief introduction. Um, Jasmine is currently the head of talent over at Verse. And Darion is currently the director of global talent acquisition at Eventbrite. So uh they are a husband-wife team in multiple definitions uh in terms of professionally and profession uh personally. So um yeah, this is gonna be a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to to honestly really dialing in too on how you guys like just helped each other uh throughout the years and and like what that must be like at home, being able to like support each other and help each other be the best version of uh yourselves at work and and and just more holistically as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

So sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

So it's nice to have like your your in-house consultant. Um funny enough, we kind of don't get tired of it of talking about it, it never feels heavy.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah, we have to like literally say, Okay, enough work. Well, and we'd say that, and then of course work is not that yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Do you so how does it like creep up when it's like I think where it would be where it'd probably be the hardest is like when you're just trying to relax at night and it's like nine, ten o'clock, and you're trying to wind down, but you both are just like in tech, in town acquisition leadership roles. So I'm assuming it's like it'll just kind of slip out like 9:30, and I think, oh by the way, this thing happened at work, and then you just start going. Does that I'm assuming that probably happens all the time? No, all the time.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

And I think some of the best ones are um when we're kind of like ear hustling each other's meetings, and she'll hang up or I'll hang up. I'm like, I just went through that too. Do you want to do you want to talk about that? You want to download uh about your plan of action, how to move forward. I think I asked literally something about that yesterday. I was like, Hey, you want to read this slack before us and then uh is is it is a copesthetic? And yes, she's like, Yeah, I've done that too. So it's I think that's the best way about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yeah, and we have our like in-house advisors, like he's absolutely my advisor, and like vice versa. Like, it's we have to actively say, Okay, let's shut it down. But I will say it's invaluable, it's so amazing to have that. I always say when people ask me about him and like, oh, your husband does the same thing, I'm like, Yeah, but he's actually better than me. Like quite as quite as as his cat. Um, he is. It's it's so great to like just I don't know, gut check so many things with him. Um, and we always say, Okay, the last thing I'm gonna say about this thing.

Military Roots And Standards

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah, and how many times do you say that before? Yeah, yeah. So you guys grew up in Virginia, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

We did, we did very, very similar upbringings. Um, I grew up in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and she was down in the beach area, if you're familiar, but it'll be more specific. 757.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

If you know, you know uh specifically Hampton Roads. And that's I will say that's where I spent most of my life, but I came from a military background. My dad's retired Air Force, so I was actually born in Belgium. Um, and then we moved a little later uh to Alabama, and then my dad officially retired in Virginia, and that's where my mom's from. So we decided to stay. So yeah, I would say a bulk of my Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

And I was born in Mississippi, then moved immediately to Puerto Rico, spent a few years there. Um, instead of squirrels, they're iguanas. Uh that was fine. The rain was always warm. Um, and then I think Florida, and then after that, we settled in uh Fredericksburg, where if you're familiar with this, if the familiar with the 95, my parents commuted up to Quantico. My mom actually just retired from the FBI uh like last last summer. Super, super happy for her. But yeah, they're still there. Hopefully we get them to move out here soon.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

We're working on it. Now they're listening to your pleasure. With our daughter.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

And so um, Darian, your your dad was uh and mom were Navy for a while, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Yeah, my dad did 22-ish years in Navy, my mom did eight.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yep. Yeah. I think that foundation, having military parents, you know, watching your dad kind of drown his pants and starch uh very early on, making sure there's no creases, and then him coming behind you when you clean the bathroom, like, hey, I think you missed spot. Very, very early on, you're like, you you have this vision of excellence and perfection kind of ingrained in you, not only just because you you're taught that you have to be twice as good uh given where our parents are coming from, but just because of that military background as well. Um you gotta take that into your friendships, your your personal relationships, the workplace as well. I think that foundation has really set the stage for how I've gotten to be where I'm at um at this age as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

I would agree. It's funny when you said the starch comment. You ever get those moments you hear something and it triggers like a memory? I could vividly like smell the starch. I don't know if you've ever had like a canopy spray. Oh my god. But I can smell it and I could see it. It's like a green bottle with a little rainbow. I'm gonna have to go look it up now so I can like see it. But like, yeah, we very much live the same life. My dad, same thing, retired Air Force. And yeah, just so many things about like that they instilled in us from like order and just having, you know, around for reason, even from waking up every day, your bed had to be made as soon as you get up. You're not leaving this house without the bed made. Um, but yeah, it shaped so much, like foundationally, yeah, that we think back on it. Yeah, a lot of my life was shaped around that. And my mother too, like, you know, things that she went through in her childhood growing up in Virginia, she was born and raised in Hampton, Virginia, and just the things that she's gone through as well instilled in me.

What Excellence Really Means

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah, on the um, you know, prep call initially, and then before we hit record uh today, you both brought up like the term excellence several times, right? Um and I would love to learn just more about maybe like why that's so important to you. I know you touched on it in terms of like military background and and really just maybe more insight as like why that's so important, and then also uh what that really means in terms of execution, like just sort of thinking about like how it applies to your life today and how you carry that forward, like your personal life, professionally. Um, but yeah, let's just start with like why is that that can you tell me more about why that concept is so important to you both?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah, um, for me, it's it's more so understanding. I I think most most kids, you don't understand how much your parents have sacrificed until it's too late. Um and that light bulb went off for me probably like when I was like 22-ish, 21. And I'm like, man, my parents have really I'm a middle child also, too. So um they're still parenting. Um, my younger brother, and then I I'm in school, and then my older brother as well. So we're three years apart, and then we have a nine-year gap with my younger brother. And so you see them still actively parenting, you see them still um, you know, if I ask for$20 for a haircut in college, and then I hear my mom might not be getting her nails done, that doesn't resonate right uh until a later date. I'm like, oh, I was taking from them in a way, they have a responsibility, they feel like they have a responsibility, but then uh as I move through my life, I'm like, I have a responsibility to be excellent because of the sacrifices that they made as well. Um we kind of touched on this in the in the prep. My father is from Mississippi. Um I was born in Mississippi, but he's literally from the poorest county uh in the state. And he had to escape a very, very harsh upbringing. Um, his home was maybe the size of the room that we're sitting in now, um multiple children. And he joined the military at 17, not because he wanted to, because he had to get out of that environment. And so I, when I think about the things of uh when I think about excellence, I have a certain responsibility, not only to myself, not only to my child, but to my the legacy and the generation before me because of how much they sacrificed to put me in this place. And I'd be damned if I if I you know um make waste of those those sacrifices, the the long commutes, the traveling back and forth, the airport trips when uh they're trying to figure out how to get um my mother put to in Puerto Rico, the different type of uh military kind of uh assignments as well. And you know, all those things kind of start to flood back um when you had those memories of going to the airport. But my dad was actually stressed with two kids and a dog uh by himself at a very young age. I'm like, for me, I'm like, oh, that was fun. We're going to Puerto Rico, uh flying back to Jacksonville or whatever it is, but now you're like, oh, my parents are making a sacrifice to make sure that we didn't stress. And so um, when I think about excellence and showing up in the workplace, it's not just for me and for my family, but it's for the sacrifices my parents made. Um, and I just have a psychotic sense of like I want to be the best at everything I do and represent my family at that uh best I can.

Perfection Versus Progress

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Solid. Yeah, I would say the same thing. Like I think we kind of talked about this earlier, but Darion and I we met really early in age, and I think we immediately clicked because foundationally our upbringings were so similar. Like our both of our parents did. Um, well, my dad is retired in the military. My mom was, you know, met my dad when she was 21. So a lot of her life is kind of shaped around that too. Um, and my dad also, he's from Brooklyn, New York. He grew up in uh Bed Sai in the 60s and 70s. He was in, you know, Marcy projects, like he had a very tough life and a life where it's literally survival of the fittest, and you have to be better and you have to do better and want better for yourself to get out of there. Um, a lot of his friends, you know, didn't make it out and are no longer here or just in a bad situation. Um, so I think it's it's so funny. I always say my dad is like, if you know him, you know, he's the best storyteller in the world. Like he's honestly so good. And he would tell me so many stories from when he was younger. And I always appreciated the stories because they were he's very animated and brings stories to life and very serious stories that you may not realize when you're younger, like the um gravity of them. But as you get older and you start to go through life, I realized like, wow, daddy, like you really went through some like tough things. I understand now why you were so hard on me and why you had again that word excellence, like why you had this bar of excellence. And he would always tell me, my maiden name is Smith. He'd be like, You're Smith. And so you like things that my friends are doing, I would say, Well, I was, you know, doing this because, well, they did, well, I don't care because you're a Smith, and this is how you have to be. And now that I'm older and I realize and I'm in life as a Black woman, and I'm in life in like these areas where I am expected to be at a certain level, I understand why my bar is higher and why I need to have that bar for myself at least. Um, improving, you know, for myself, for my family, for my daughter, and just stepping into who I know I am. And I'm so thankful that I was instilled those values and those just honestly um ways of life and ways of living at such an early age because it instilled in me that feeling and that belief, like I can do any anything I want to. I really can because I believe it, because I know it and I prep for it. I was also telling Darien, we're kind of talking about this earlier. Like, I remember having to be so put together, like literally in elementary school. Like, if I wanted to go to a sleepover and I wanted to go hang out, there's, you know, normally you're like, hey, and you're nervous. You're like, hey, go ask your dad if you can spend the night. And so you just like, hey, can I go spend the night at Britney's? I had to come together with like a full presentation on what is happening at Britney's, where exactly does Britney live, why do I want to go there? And that was like just the standard for everything that I wanted to get done. So I think, like as it stands today, and sometimes it can be a point of contention with both of us. I just like to have a plan and I like to think of like every foolproof part of it. Any scenario that could go wrong, I want to know, and I want to have it all fit together of how it's going to go right. Um, and definitely it was annoying when I was younger, but I think I love that about me now.

College Love To Career Moves

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I think I think the funniest part with that, how we were we were both brought up very similarly, is how we both operate in those high pressure moments. Like for each she has to overprepare. Uh, and she's going to have a very, very tight way in which she uh delivers information. Me, I if I overprepare, I will stumble. So I have to shoot from the hip. But like I I like to just kind of riff. Uh, and I like, I'm not like big into the presentation decks. I'll have like three or four bullets and I feel most comfortable. But because of the pressure that I always put under as a child to be excellent, those situations don't stress me out. So I can just kind of flow through them. I'll have some notes here and there, but uh, it's always funny to see how we both have had different, you know, we always what's the debate we have? Uh nurture versus nature and how that kind of plays out. Uh, and how we have both had very similar upbringings to that extent, but the excellence piece and how we move through those conversations and navigate uh the nuances between them is always funny to see.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, a solid example of the nature. Nurture was very similar, but in our nature, we just inevitably are we are who we are. So yeah, it's like one of our favorite household debates.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Every game night, we make everybody have that debate.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

How do you feel like the uh concept of um it's like like concept uh you can almost call it like excellence like a value, I would say, like or um maybe principle, however you want to define it. But um, you know, I I'm curious like professionally how it shows up in terms of how you lead a department today. Um maybe we could talk about it in terms of uh we didn't talk about this on the prep, but I I would just love to learn how you the concept of like excellence shows up in how you lead um TA motion because um and and then also we could talk about like in parenting too, because I think it's really interesting. It's an interesting concept, and like as a as a dad myself, I'm always trying to like strike that balance of like high standards with like empathy and accepting and like how to blend those things together like appropriately. I'm just curious, like from a leadership standpoint, how do you kind of instill that value of excellence and and how do you make that part of your culture for your team?

Agency Days In Reston

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah, I I we so we had the same, um, and we'll get to this probably later. We had the same boss coming out of school. We worked together as well. And one thing that I quote incessantly is that activity is king. Um and I've never seen anyone who chases activity fail. Um, I've seen that activity or that success or that goal shift, um, but I've never seen that person be successful eventually. Um and so that is what I preach to my team in terms of being excellent, keep moving forward. And also, too, as cliche as it is, I've done everything you can do in recruiting. I filled a C-suite role last year as well as an intern. There's nothing below me or beneath me, and I wouldn't ask you to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. So I put myself on Front Street in terms of handling the narrative and kind of bridging bridging the gap between um the hard conversations and freeing them up to be as active as possible. And that's my level of excellence. Uh, but also to your point, how do you I I help them navigate uh the work life uh as well. Um and if you have that laptop open, give me 110, but I want you to close it at 5 p.m., right? I don't want you to be me early in my career where I was burning out and running through walls and saying yes to everything. I want you to tell me no, it's very, very healthy. Um, and then that also when you lead in, when you kind of water that seat a little bit, it gives them more ample opportunity and energy to want to be excellent for you as well. So you protect them, you prioritize your team. I think a lot of recruiters and talent partners, whatever the moniker might be, they get talent leaders who prioritize the business. Um, and I prioritize my team. By prioritizing my team, they prioritize me, who then serves the business, right? And so I try to leave with that activity and comes full circle in terms of that bar of excellence as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

That's solid. Yeah, I love that you pointed out like doing things for the business because ultimately we are, and I really see this. I think my mindset has shifted going from leadership within a you know Fortune 500, like really big company, to like startup life is completely different than like you know how it can be in other places. And I think something that shifted for me is like knowing do it for the business. Like we all are stakeholders, we all want to be successful and we're trusted to do that. But I think it makes you realize, and for me, something I've realized very recently is like a shift in maybe how I used to get things done. Like I think I mentioned my bar of excellence is like having every single scenario played out, understanding what could go wrong, what needs to go right. Um, but in a startup life, it's fast. Like analysis, paralysis will literally cripple you. And I had to realize, like, okay, yes, we need to have our ducks in a row, but we also need to move things forward. Like, and I like that you mentioned that. Like, like you have to be active, you have to have activity. And for me, it was letting those guardrails down and realizing it's okay to make a mistake, it's okay to have a little bit of risk, as long as we're, of course, doing that like analysis after and understanding, okay, if if it did go wrong, this is why. And like, how do we course correct and how would how do we move forward?

SPEAKER_03 18:03

I like this. I like that you said talked about mistakes a little bit because I think that this is maybe something we can you can share a little bit more about. But like being excellent doesn't mean not making mistakes.

Westward Moves And Google Breakthrough

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Exactly. I had to, and so that is something, and that that's not something I recently realized. I had to learn that throughout the course of my life. And I do think it's because, and my of course, my parents were excellent, and so many things that I I take away from them that I absolutely loved. But I do think the pay the bar was so high for them because of the life that they lived and how they were molded and wanting me to just have such a different life, it put a lot of pressure on me to be or to kind of confuse excellence with perfection. And I had to realize very quickly for myself, like it's okay to let myself down or let my parents down or let whoever down, because you can you can learn from that and you can bounce back from that. And like that's personally in relationships, professionally, and work. Like, I had to realize a bar of excellence doesn't mean, to your point, James, that you're not gonna fail sometimes. It's like what you do after that failure and how you move forward. I think that's what really separates like good and great from excellent.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Failure is so healthy too. I think we're all you're familiar with the the um, what is it, the 10,000 hours, right? It's in it kind of goes against the no practice makes perfect. No practice builds confidence. None of us are perfect. You're gonna miss shots, and that's okay, but at least you're taking the shots with confidence. And that's all you're saying. I think that's the best way to go about it. And you have to eat that steak sometimes, rare. It might not be medium rare, it might not be medium, but we gotta ship it, you gotta take it to the table. Uh yeah, you have to serve something.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

I I think that that's honestly like uh kind of an evolution that I'm going through, like at this point in my career. Just making a further distinction between like I didn't, I didn't say it exactly like this, but potentially between like excellence and uh being a perfectionist, right? Like I really have been focusing on stop trying to be perfect, stop setting, like not trying to like knock it out the park like every single at every single moment for every single important thing that I have to do. It's just more about like, hey, I'm gonna be really consistent and I'm gonna learn from everything that I'm doing, and I'm gonna make it, I'm gonna get better, and I'm gonna create a system that is better and that's more repeatable and is closer to achieving what I want to and and life. It's taking a little bit, and I think in a way it sort of takes a little bit of that pressure off too, where it's like, look, you know, you start looking at everything like a a formula, like a puzzle you're trying to solve, and um versus like this idea of being perfect. It's it's like this idea of like focusing on progress and keeping the bar really high. Frankly, like if you always reach the bar, it's probably not high enough, right? Like you know what I mean? Like, maybe that's the way to think about it. It's like like we should be we should be raising, we should have uh goals that if we're hitting them every time, then like maybe they aren't the right goals, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Solid, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, so so um you both went to college together, not mistaken. I don't know if initially, but right, like you ended up uh doing the transfer in schools, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Or yeah, did you transfer school?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

I I think it was for someone, right? I don't know. I used to say it was for because I went to private school, and I will say the tuition uh the savings was really good when I went to a public school, but it was for my wife, my then girlfriend, uh Jasmine. Yes, I made that transfer. I went to HBCU, Virginia uh Virginia Union University. That was right around the corner, literally walking distance from VCU. Uh we met our at the end of our first semester of college, um, and then made it official that first month, second semester. Um, and we've been in it ever since this that would be that's 16, 16 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

16 years ago. We've been married for 10. We'll be married in May.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Nice. All right. So the 10-year anniversary is coming up.

unknown 22:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Yes. What are you uh what do you have planned? Do you have anything planned? Jasmine planned something planned. It sounds like she's got like the yeah, you know what's funny?

First-Time Management At Google

SPEAKER_00 22:16

We both are very much in into this together. So we wanted to do something big. Um, a big part of it. So, as you can imagine, meeting at 18 meeting in college, a lot of our friends have been there for the entire journey. So our friends have just been so important and like pivotal in our relationship, and just like I remember there were times like I'd be upset about something and I'd vent to a friend and they're like, nah, like just would like dismiss my feelings because they just love Darian so much. Like, he's great. And like it's they have just been. lock step with us for so long so we wanted to do something that obviously celebrates our marriage at this milestone but also just celebrates our friends and family who have been like just such a big just foundation and and part of this with us so we're actually having so we're married in May our last thing was May so our hashtag for our wedding was Mayday we're having a date and so everybody knows like our anniversary we always call it they'll say happy Mayday every year. So we're having a Mayday murder mystery dinner.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Oh nice that sounds really cool.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

So I I love horror movies but my favorite subgenre of horror movies or thrillers uh is a murder mystery and I've been it's been top of mind for me for years. I'm like can we just host a dinner with like 10 people uh and then we're like you know what might as well just do it for all of our friends and family so they're gonna come in a few and a bunch of local friends as well um and we have a venue instead of like doing your 10 year kind of vow renewal we're just doing it our way and um doing a murder mystery yeah we're going all out we're like we we just uh finished like the last touches for like the design it's gonna be like speedy vibes it's gonna be 1920s themed so everybody has to come dress like mobsters mob wives like the whole oh nice all of our friends know like you have to really play into these characters yeah you'll be turning away at the door for sure we're going all out like yes 50 people and yes oh 50 50 yeah wow okay so this is like a full this is uh I'm sure this is taking a lot of planning oh yeah for sure I planner extraordinaire and Darian's actually been doing a lot of things yeah yeah yeah yeah very seriously yeah we're excited I'll circle back with you and like goes yeah we're gonna here's all that fun stuff oh man so how does that work so you're like you're setting up like a um it's like a puzzle essentially like you're actually like how is it gonna oh I actually uh I hired a system company that would you hired you hired a whole company this is okay this is really actors they'll have people in in uh that actually know the script we don't know anything they'll they call us to dress up everybody has kind of a persona um and then they'll draft like 10 of our guests to also act next to the five or so actors and then we'll kind of solve the mystery together they'll break us up in like groups of like 10 or so uh but we have no idea what the script is um and they come in and they just they host this so it's a mystery for it's a mystery for you as well like like you have to be the one managing because managing it sounds like a lot of work if you yeah I would do that we want to enjoy it we're gonna have a um another show we love to is Traitors are you familiar with traitors at all?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

I'm not actually what's what's okay so it's like this show um where you go to the country I think it originated in in the UK they brought it to the US it's like celebrities that are on there but also mixed like regular people but basically there's a murder every night it's like a game and then people are getting voted off the show so you're trying to figure out who is the traitor amongst you. So kind of like murder mystery but as I like to say they do um like a confessional so you know you go in the booth and like you just talk great like who you think it is and things like that. So we're gonna have like a confessional booth have all that like fun stuff to make it yeah and our friends are very animated people too so it'll be it'll be nice. Yeah no plans yeah yeah I hope you guys are gonna take like lots of photos and oh yeah we're gonna have a um video person to do all of it we're gonna have a photographer of course like do all the fun stuff yeah is this uh is this gonna become an annual thing do you think we do something every like a big thing every five years so the first May Day like big Mayday celebration we did five years ago and we had everybody come to Houston.

Leading TA With Humanity

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Kind of like a house with them as well we've we had just finished our home of our friends so we've been like five cities in the last seven years or so we've we've met friends slash family in each city we've been in so everybody came in some of our college friends my childhood friends friends from San Francisco Houston friends it was kind of one yeah Phoenix we've lived a lot of places uh and everybody came together and it kind of we kind of broke bread together in our home um it was a celebration all weekend it was nice oh that's awesome since we'll be the tenure so maybe in 15 yeah yeah we'll license that'd be awesome yeah uh that sounds like so much fun yeah we're excited I'm nice I'm excited for you guys I'm like I'm really excited for you actually like a fun sounds so cool um well hey look I want to talk about um when you both uh started to work together like the beginning of the career I think it's a really cool story so Jasmine I guess out of school you got a job at like a boutique recruiting staffing firm in Rustin is that right yeah exactly so my first I was actually at a um uh Valespar.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

So I studied fashion so I studied something completely different than what I'm doing today obviously um and I started off in a position that was like kind of doing like marketing and sales at Valespar at the time I don't even think it's a company anymore I think it's owned by Sherwin Williams but it's a paint company and they were doing like the paint studio revolution but I started there I had to travel every week and obviously I was just out of college my friends were still all around like I just felt like so much FOMO I thought the life of travel felt so like fun and like cool and I hated it.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

So I think I was six months in loved a job but I hated traveling so ended up looking for a new role and I had um some people uh I don't even remember like kind of tell me about recruiting I was like I could try that I'll I like to talk a lot like I'll just see what I can do here and then got a job yeah at an agency it's like agency recruiting at E Tang group at the time I don't think they're named that anymore but yeah and then uh six months later I don't uh it might have it might have been six months later yeah um so I went to school again for something completely different than what I'm doing now I actually got a um criminal justice degree uh go figure parents were very inspiring with that choice um and yeah I kind of really didn't know what I wanted to do at that time um I wanted to go become a police officer and um Freddie Gray was killed in Baltimore County and just really had me reassessing what I wanted to do and how I wanted to go about utilizing my degree. But I'm a very altruistic person. I want to help people right and so I wanted to continue to do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

At that time Jazz is like hey I'm I'm giving out dream jobs to people helping people and putting smiles on people's faces I was like that sounds cool let me let me uh throw my name in the hat it was a uh unique situation because that boutique firm uh Itang group that you mentioned was five or six or so employees and a very like a hundred total because the rest of the office it was teeny it was like it was like the 100 like in terms of people billing but the corporate team was five or six or was there like a hundred recruiters so the corporate team is actually headquartered in Charlotte so like that area business and like most of our clients in the area it was like maybe 50 or so people in that office but then they had like sister offices so we had one um Charlotte was the main one there was one in um Nashville there was one in um another part of yeah North Carolina South Carolina and then Ruston actually was the smallest office of all of them with at the time I think it was five people at the time very small but they were small but powerful right and like they had we had a great leader there.

From Order Taker To Strategic Partner

SPEAKER_02 30:29

He was a machine right but to that extent you're really rolling the dice on bringing in she's still a new employee at that time um probably still on probation and you're like hey let's hire my my boyfriend who Yeah that's uh yeah she really stuck her duck out for you there yeah yeah no she did I could have like really uh uh blew up her spot in in not a great way right but they really um you know took a chance on me because of the advocacy that she did for me very very early on and so and that's continued to be a theme that we'll talk more about in um in our life and in our career and personal relationships as well uh but yeah she stuck her neck out for me got me an interview actually I didn't even I interviewed with the team and they liked me but it was such a of a taboo hire they actually had one of the VPs uh come in the regional yeah regional VPs come in and I I think we got coffee and he grilled the hell out of me man he was like he was like are you serious about her is all the questions I feel like I was talking yeah father because I could accept the the feng shui of the office if I if if we broke up uh and no and I convinced him uh Brian was his name convinced Brian took a shot on me uh and yeah that was all she wrote and we worked together and um I think and we talked about this a little bit as well it's one thing to know what your spouse does or your partner does and you hear about it but actually seeing it in motion um is a different level of inspiration and bar setting in your home. For me she's always been my uh my bar my I've I've I've wrote her coattails her entire career in college all the things and so she was always my center of excellence and seeing that uh on Front Street seeing her smiling and dialing and just smashing it she was the best recruiter in our office um and by like by a mile. And so that was very inspiring for me to also want to stay close um and also work in my own craft and take it very very seriously. So very early on we talked about excellence I saw it on on you know full display and I applied that to the same way that I um you know approached recruiting uh very very early on not just for myself but I saw it I saw that she also advocated for me so I couldn't let her down in that sense either. So um no she was smashing it.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

He's being very very modest I think a good recruiter knows good talent. Like I think that's like one thing that I think separates like really really really great recruiters. And I knew early and like looking at potential and that advocacy started for me very early. This is one of my first like biggest moments where I had to advocate for my candidate like he wasn't my candidate was but I knew like the potential like I knew through those first six months which was a lot like starting off you just you're thrown into it and I knew very early and looking at what success was and looking at like some of the star players in our company I'm like I know he could do this job and I know he could do it very very well. And so shout out to my boss at the time Hunter McElfish um he still to this day is one of my favorite bosses that I've ever had because of that ability to see potential as well like he saw so much potential in me. And then again this is six months in and believed so much in what I was saying and how my advocacy that he took a shot and gave a chance to Darien and we both ended up doing amazing.

Communication, Influence, And Guardrails

SPEAKER_03 33:41

He actually ended up you know in agency recruiting you're a recruiter and then if you're really really good you go to business development work and he went to business development work so quickly because how great he is yeah so yeah no shot I don't know who's gonna listen to this I can't say who's my favorite boss but if no one wants to listen um I quote him on a daily basis he was a machine um his work ethic is was was what a point I agree yeah so uh you said you both started the the agency in Rustin uh probably within a mile of where I am right now what part of uh Sunrise Valley was it like I'm trying to remember do I remember the address I think it's like 12 something it's from you know that big the um is it the khaki building it's like a really secret building like uh yeah okay yeah okay this one right across the street from it yeah yeah I don't know what building I just remember to yeah well we can see it from 267 on the way to um yes yes yes uh Dulles right yeah yeah we were yeah I think I know where that is what was the um the place but no the happy hour that spot that uh Hunter always took us to so fun I forget I'll come to me on this in this episode uh when it comes to me I'll let you know what it was we went there yeah they have like a um so he he used to love he was very competitive so he loved to do things like place bets like all right let's go play ball ski ball oh like uh was like carpool I don't know yes that was it okay yeah yeah they still have that it's the one in Herndon off Eldon Street right that's the one wow that's actually good I haven't been there in a minute I need to take my team there yeah yeah it'll be like a random Friday at like 2 30 who's like I'm okay all right let's go he's like all right first round tournament like okay first place that's it that's the one that's um I don't know why I haven't I just randomly haven't thought about that place in like a year I've I've been there like within the last few years but just a couple of times I I always like I it's like I always kind of sleep on it and then I randomly will like it'll come up and be like oh I gotta go. So it is one of those spots too and then once you go you're just like oh yeah that was a spot yeah yeah that's awesome nice nice well okay so so you you both had the job at the the staffing um agency but that was when shortly after didn't you decide to move to Phoenix or is that okay so we moved to Phoenix and then my they actually asked me I was going to leave but they asked me like hey do you want to stay and work remote and remote wasn't even like a thing at that time this was 2016.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

So I was like yes I would love to so we moved to Phoenix I worked remote during that leaving and going to um at the time another agency and then um we can be honest like I get it I get it yeah yeah so I ended up um so like I said as soon as we moved to Phoenix a really big part of it I don't think if we hadn't have moved to the West Coast I don't think I would have been on Google's radar at all. I got an email from Google that the same year we moved I think it was like the end of that year um asking if I'm interested in roles and to move to uh Mountain View at the time I think it was Mountain View and a other few options but Mountain View was like the closest to me. So ended up interviewing took the job moved and in my mind I'm like okay again being young and just really just saying okay we'll make it work I was like I'll go back and forth because at the time was still in Phoenix yeah so I was like it's not a bad trip it's like you know an hour flight like it's not too bad.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

That's fine.

Authenticity, Advocacy, And Pillars

SPEAKER_02 37:38

So I get the job there Darien this is the story of his life he's like I gotta like meet her okay so he decides and I did actually refer to him into Google I said actually I do know another recruiter who's well yeah let's slow down on that for a minute so everybody tuning in like this this this the uh jasmine getting Darien a job that's that wasn't a one time occurrence like where she got him a job at the same company it happened again at Google it was twice so it happened more than twice or it was well actually the first time was at Virginia Pop University that's three and we were I worked in um graduate admission yes and then I was graduating I graduated six months before him so I was graduating and my boss was like what am I gonna do I said well actually yeah I have somebody great who can do this job so actually I got him he's a three BCU oh man and then he took yeah then he came to tank group and then I went to Google and I was like hey but you guys still need recruiters I actually know an amazing recruiter yeah his resume and these are again these are not easy it's not like I was like hey you know give him this job like no it was very much like hey here's his information he had to do everything these are it's not easy to get a job at Google like you've got a gloss over that too you're like yeah I got a job at Google no that was like probably the one of the heaviest in I got to see you on Front Street doing that interview as well that was a very very very to this day uh probably top three or four conversations I've had from interviews process standpoint it's it's an incredibly high bar to get hired at Google it I mean it always has been uh recruiting team like I I mean I remember that was a big goal a lot of people had when I was starting out I started at K Force a big staffing company in Houston yeah so that's how we were very close in rest in area too um but that was a goal a lot of people had and and most people couldn't pull it off frankly like because they were so selective so kudos to you guys to to be able to pull that off because um you know few and far between right thanks I appreciate that and yeah I say that to say he uh I think two weeks later two or three it was like within a month's time though and he was like took it so seriously and I'll let him tell the story because he always says how he was thinking in that moment I don't know that pressure that pressure I I think that's like top three for me like is she gonna say yes when I get on one knee and can I get this job at Google? I can't watch my wife fly back and forth. You know she's doing it with a smile on her face but like I can't mess this beautiful opportunity up um and I could have moved to Mountain View and started from scratch and probably got a job somewhere else but I wanted to make sure that it was a very smooth transition. And so she referred me in um and we had different recruiters. I remember my recruiters being like hey are you short are you prepared for this blah blah blah and I'm like I probably I I I kid you not I am I actually at this point if you're familiar with Laszlo Bach I'm I forget I'm I might be butchering his last name but he was one of the original or not original but one of the keystone um creators of the HR policies at at Google. So I I I literally read his book within like a week or so to prepare myself for the interview process and like googling this is a big thing about how you present and how you actually um you know answer some of those questions how you do the the general cognitive ability um conversation as well which is another uh part of the interview process that knocks a lot of folks out so I took it very very seriously so that process also uh coined with the the pressure of my wife already having the job uh was insurmountable um but yeah they they took a shot on me as well and I ended up getting that and we broke our lease again that's also a theme of ours broke our lease and we ended up moving we're both massive Eagles fans and so we ended up moving I started my job um so I accepted the job we moved to uh San Francisco um and got there I think the weekend of the Super Bowl and so the Eagles went on Sunday and then my first day at Google I have no voice uh my voice is completely gone uh but it was like probably one of the best weekends of my life remind me to see that video of when the Eagles won and like exactly why it's just gone he's like popping a bottle of champagne and spraying it and just like screaming like it was yeah yeah send me that video please but I was hours later showing up for orientation that was a time that was a time that's awesome and then uh so uh jasmine so you you actually moved into a recruiting manager role at at Google right so that's pretty cool so you made your transition into uh management leadership at at Google yeah which I always say um it's so funny so a few things I at the time did not want to be a manager I had no like I remember specifically in my one-on-one I remember saying like yeah I just want to be like I I remember seeing there was like this VP level person at Google at the time who was like a um a VP IC and I was like that's so neat like I knew I wanted to go really far up but I was like I want to do that like as an IC up to be like a consultant or I forgot what his job was it was like like a leadership coach or something.

Community As A Daily Practice

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Anywho right after that my boss um at the time ends up leaving and right before he left he was like listen I want you to do like basically giving me the talk of like what he sees in me as a leader and like mentorship and things like that. And then his boss um and it just ends up asking me like hey and I was actually pregnant at the time as well. So it was so many things like shifting through my mind and it ultimately I ended up saying yes and I'm so glad I did because it did change the course of like my career and like just like my mindset on so many things and I am happy to be in the position I am today. But yeah started in management not only starting in management there but also leading the team that of people that I of leading my peers. So I was peers first like I didn't step into a management role into like another team like I stepped into management of a team that we were previously peers. But I will say very hard to do but I had the best team ever and they were so supportive like still to this day just so thankful of how easy they made the transition for me how they were my champions they didn't push back on it at all like it really for me instilled like another level of confidence. I think coming into a management role from IC you're already kind of feeling like a fish out of water but having a team that like reassures you like no no this made complete sense to us like we actually pushed for it too like how do you not see it? So like I think that was like such a big thing that I'll just never forget and always be so appreciative of my team for making that transition so great for me.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

It must be a really cool place and challenging place I would assume to have your first management job. Like it sounds like a really cool place to have a foundation and leadership.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Oh yeah the the best place to have a foundation and I will say too it's it's one of those places where the bar the bar for impact is so high like you're constantly Needing to like show impact. Like you you have like the how, the what, the why, like people who've been there, they know, but you you're always like in a leadership role without the title, like leading without authority is very much like a thing there. So I think it developed me even before I was a manager in so many ways to be a good leader that it did feel like a natural, like, you know, progression up. Like even my stakeholders, like they were all like championing, championing it because I did like show up, like that. I had the opportunity to be a leader, like before having the title too. But yeah, big, big pressure. Um, but I'm so happy that I went through it and it taught me so much.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yeah, it's really cool. And uh I I would love to talk uh a little bit about um where you both are today. And there's a lot I want to talk about holistically uh for you both in terms of professionally, personally, and I really want to get into the chapter. We're getting into the chapter of like who you want to become and what the next best version of yourself looks like. Um, but let's just dial in on where you are today. Specifically, we can start uh within talent acquisition and we'll we'll expand from there. Uh, but Jasmine, now you're you know head of talent over at Verse. Uh Darien, you're now director of Global TA at Eventbrite. Um, both very competitive tech organizations. And from a talent acquisition perspective, Darien, we can start start with you here. Um I I know that the top TA takeaway that you mentioned in terms of like being a TA leader, uh you you said that it's like it's important uh to prioritize like the human being, right? Like the person, um, and to make sure we're treating camps as people, not products. And when you say like prioritize being a human, like prioritize the human element, um can you please like explain to us a little bit about what that really means to you and how you show up at work?

Gratitude, Joy, And Resilience

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah, I I think um especially growing up in Silicon Valley and being a part of the boom of uh a bunch of folks joining big tech, you kind of saw it on Front Street where everything was about the bottom line, everything was about 10x in your growth, everything was about the the revenue, or or I learned more about Ebeter than I could forget, right? And and so I think um seeing all those things and then kind of seeing it the people function um and the humanity of which is why I joined in this career path, right? And prioritizing humans is something that I keep uh at top of mind on a daily basis. I think for my team, we're all speeding up to try to automate everything to um really uh scale the process. Um and what I'm trying to re-re-educate my leaders on as well as my team is to make sure that we're prioritizing the people, the candidates. Um, this is the nastiest job market I've seen in a long time. If you get on LinkedIn, people are burnt out. They are interviewing those job scripts or the job applications are being sent to what they like to call the black hole, and all this is true. I can post a job tomorrow and I'll get 1,500 applicants within six or seven days, right? And um, you want to make those people feel seen, heard, and valued. Uh, and also, too, I don't think people are chasing the the biggest compensation packages these days. Um, you know, I think they're really chasing uh a mission, a vision uh being aligned to security and stability. Um, and that starts with the brand owners, who I believe are the talent partners or recruiters, and the people who prioritize people the best and make those humans feel seen will win. I've seen people turn down X amount of dollars because of the treatment they receive through the interview process, the white bluff service they're receiving from recruiters, right? I think that brand recognition starts on that first conversation with actually just like when you're like, hey James, like what do you like to do? I know we're talking about a job, but like what about your you know, your hobbies and your your child? What are your some of your goals beyond the job inscription? And even if it doesn't work out, they remember those conversations and they'll go tell a friend, and the friend will tell a friend, and and and all of a sudden it's not as competitive when you're uh also operating within the 75th percentile of of of you know uh of pay bands, right? And so I think that's where we need to get back to, and especially with being a lot of these companies virtual, right? And I think we're doing a lot of virtual conversation, a lot of virtual um you know panels, a lot of virtual job fairs. I made it my mission last year to get out and talk to as many candidates as possible. And it was probably the most um fulfilling part of one of my most fulfilling parts of my career, um speaking on panels and actually talking with candidates, having them follow up on LinkedIn, even if I don't have a job, uh just being a part of my network, say seeing that you are a connection to me might open up a door for someone else. Um so just having those small conversations and putting humans back at the center of you know recruiting, which it should have always been, which is fine, um, but not losing that North Star and keeping it as a North Star as well. I think that's um been, you know, my my uh North Star for my team as well as the company I serve.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Yeah, I love it. And I'm curious, like why, I mean, I can tell like you're like visually very passionate about this, right? Like in terms of your body language, like and uh just how you think about putting like creating great people, like experiences for people. I'm just wondering, is there anything that stands out to you as like why this is so important to you? Like, where do you think that comes from?

SPEAKER_02 49:57

I think the the the passion that I have for connectivity in my job and making people feel seen is also how I show up in real life as a friend, as a as a partner, I hope. Right. And so I I I I'm very, very passionate about making sure that like and our our her father always says, like, our house is a light, right? And I like to make sure that people feel seen. I like to make sure people when we're hosting that people have what they need. And so that bleeds over into how I also like to uh show up in a in a professional setting. Um, for a long time, I showed up as whatever the business or whatever my manager or whatever my team needed, but now I can confidently say what you see right now is how I show up at work, how I show up with my friends and family as well. So I'm I've kind of just really stepped into molding and melding the two uh personas because if you fake it for long enough, the mass is going to start to slip and you just feel insane. Um and obviously you still have to be show up as a slightly different way in a uh but uh like I won't talk talk to my the board about popping champagne before I started that um but I I try to bleed them, uh blend them as much as I can. Um and I think that starts with my my personal life and how I like to show up for my friends. So if I show up for my friends and families, how I'd show up for for candidates because it's very, very hard uh economy right now, job search uh market right now, and um people need love, people need the safe spaces, and I try to provide that from a um recruiting lens.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Yeah, I love it. And Jasmine, you you talked uh uh about one of your biggest takeaways uh within talent acquisition, um, about like being uh genuine partners uh uh at deep level with uh the different function leaders, like for instance, like with engineering and moving away from uh kind of an order-taking model uh when it comes to talent acquisition. Um why is that what you chose to be like the most important takeaway uh as a TA leader at this point in your career?

Wrap-Up And Future Connections

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Yeah, I love that question. Um and I think because like I think I've always been in any company that I've been in, it's been paid for performance and I've had equity or like certain stakes. But I think being at a startup and being at such a smaller startup where every single role and every single function um just creates so much value and has so much impact and is critical to this success of the company. I think owning an entire function, like this is the first time I've ever owned the entire function, um, that really just makes it such a big thing for me that I think is so important. And it also just translates, even if you're not, I think I have that mindset because I'm owning an entire function, but I'm realizing the importance of that. I don't care if you're a recruiting coordinator or recruiter or sourcer, like you very much have so much impact over what you're doing. And when you see yourself as, okay, I am a stakeholder here, I own this function, and the success of this company is relying on me bringing in good talent. I can't be an order taker because I am no talent. I'm the talent expert. You might be the engineering expert, you might be the product expert, but you are relying on me to know like what processes we need to have in place, what you know, the market looks like, what how we should be treating candidates, what is the highest bar for candidate experience? How do we get candidates to accept our offers when maybe we don't have the most attractive offer? These are things where we do have to speak up and we do have to know, hey, I know you want to hire two or three of these, but we should probably maybe hire one. And this is the reason why, without getting into specifics. But I think just owning that and knowing that like the success of talent, which is I mean, human capital is one of the most, you know, important parts of a company, the heart of the company, when you own that and like really take that seriously, you'll own like the partnerships and better partner and just own so many of the outcomes too. Like I just feel like I have been in a seat, especially earlier in my career, where I was just being an order taker and you know, maybe doing things that I didn't really think were the smartest and the best for the business. But like you do have to know talent and you do have to be comfortable in owning um the function that you have and um owning the success of it too.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

So, how does that really show up in um how you engage with uh like lead other leaders within the organization? So um for for leaders tuning in when you when you talk about like being a partner within engineering and kind of really standing up for like your expertise and your recommendations, um, I don't know, I mean this is kind of like a big question. I I think it's probably easier to answer like situationally, like if there's an example, but um, you know, I I definitely can relate to this in which it's being able to influence uh decisions related to process or or potentially even like pretty significant portions of like the maybe even like what's included in the role, the job description. Obviously, we're not engineers, but you have to know enough about it to really be able to be a strategic partner to some extent. But um I think it's probably an area that a lot of people struggle with, right? Like truly being uh able to position themselves and step up as like a partner in the business. Um, I mean, do you have any advice on on how other leaders can do that?

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah. You hit the nail on the head. And I think like not just leaders and staff, I think leaders that I see across many functions, what really what you're um kind of hinting at and going to, you said it to influence. Like, I think the biggest part of it is you need to know how to influence others. Like you're in a role where you you're basically influencing your peers. So meaning you're leading with that authority. And I think that is like a muscle that it's it's just not like the biggest muscle for everyone. I do think it's something you have to grow and you have to flex on. And I think one of the things that I learned very early on is learning how to like build a relationship and build that trust. Like I feel like you can't just come in and like, hey, I did it here and this is why it'll work here. Like that's just it doesn't work like that. Like I think we've seen it and we've had other people maybe try that with us and it rubbed us the wrong way. So knowing that you're coming in with an active ear to listen and to understand and really like push positioning yourself as a thought partner, like not coming in just changing everything, but understanding, okay, what's working, what's not working, here's my two cents. Like I think maybe, and like just really using real examples. Like, I think that's one thing that won for me very early on, and obviously this comes with experience. But I in the startup that I'm in today, a lot of the things that are happening, I'm like, oh, I've actually had this happen before. So I'm able to use like real world examples and then success too to kind of show, like, hey, like maybe we should try it this way. Then you get a quick one there, and then you gain that trust and you gain that um no, it's that thought partnership.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

I I think um, especially because recruiting is very much what have you done for me lately. So you're already battling against either the legacy uh of the individual or the team before you, and or a good a great one or a bad one. And it I think it's communication, it's how you talk. Uh it's recruiting is is one part science, one part art. Uh, and there's a it's a gray line to a gray area in terms of how you communicate with those leaders, how you give them just enough to make them think that they are running the process sometimes, and then how you also strong arm the process without their knowing, right? And and and just that partnership in terms of how you give to get and in in terms of letting them feel like it is a a true partnership, uh, while you also remain the subject matter expert on recruiting, uh, on talent acquisition as well. But uh, I think it's communication um and it's a real science to knowing when to push and when not to push. Um and that unfortunately comes with experience um because I think we've all had very, very tough conversations that we've replayed in our mind and like, man, I should have said this or I should have done this, and but those are learning, learning experiences as well. And now I know how to navigate some of the bigger personalities or some of the folks who need the structure of the guardrails um or need a structured interview process or need to be handheld or you know, be the white bluff service. That it just comes with time um because recruiting is definitely not a one size fits all because your problems are not mine and mine aren't yours. Um, but you've experienced it all at this point. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

Yeah, yeah. I mean, for sure. It's um yeah, being able to articulate the reason why things need to be done in a certain way. Uh there's also times though where you just have to sort of like I think hold your ground, right? Like in and and make very firm, like this is our process, this is how we're doing things. You know, it's it's um maybe when it comes to the specifics of um what a role entails and a JD and like the the outcomes that the role needs to produce, of course, like that should be owned by the function lead. But when it comes to hiring that person, like that's right, a talent leader's domain. And you know, recommendations can be given, right? But like it's it's our process, just like you can give recommendations to an engineering leader, but like at the end of the day, it's like they they need they're gonna they have the expertise to hire the person that they need to hire, right? And that should be their decision. And I think you know, there there have definitely been times, like just we're talking about this topic a little bit longer, where you know, you really just have to sometimes uh put your foot down. I mean, we recently um, you know, have a situation with a with a customer that um very it I think business is super situational, right? So what I'm about to say is very situational to this business, but there are very specific reasons why they need to hire talent in office. Um, you know, for my own companies, right? Like particularly for one I have an office in Western Virginia for part of my staff because I think it's necessary. The majority of my team is actually remote uh throughout the United States, Latin America, Europe. So I have like a blended kind of motion, right? So it's hyper situational. For this business, they are going through like a cultural U-turn. It's like a kind of a turnaround situation, right? So we have to bring in office. And this is a really challenge, that's like a challenging one, right? Because it's like it's very, you know, people have very strong opinions on it. And um, you know, there are times like where, you know, certain function leads within the company where it's like, look, at the end of the day, like this is our response, like I'm responsible for making sure we get the right person in the seat, uh, to make sure that we're we're getting the right performance out of our team, like to build the and guide the talent strategy. And you know, it's like learning how to the nuance of communication of like articulating the value and and then also just being willing to say, okay, I gotta put myself out there and and just say this is just how it needs to be done. And you know, that's just what what I have to do to make sure we're driving success, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Yeah, exactly. Because yeah, you at the end of the day, you own the success of that, and then you also have to take ownership on when it doesn't go right and when it fails. So, like, yeah, if you're not speaking up and you saw that coming, like that's also on YouTube. So yeah, it's a lot of give and take, but it is a lot of like, okay, this is what has to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely a lot of nuance in the communication aspect for sure. Um yeah. Well, hey, look, on the on the prep call, just to like transition, um, I you know, I want to talk more about like who you both want to become, um, holistically as people, professionally, you know, personally. Um, Darien, you spent a fair amount of time, you talked about a few things, um, but one of the things that you talked about was really focusing on like getting back to your authentic self. Um and I'm curious to to learn more about what you mean by that and why that is something that's like such an important like focal point for you right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

Yeah, I I think um because it brings me the most peace. Uh I think it's really hard for me to to fake the funk um and to show up in a manner that isn't authentic to who I am at my core, and they'll just eat at me and eat at me. And then that will show that will kind of show up in how I might show up at the park with my daughter or how I might show up on a date night. Um and that will kind of reverberate through how I leave my home. So if I don't bring my my true authentic self to my job, um it will kind of be, it'll have the the you know, cause and effect to how I show up as a friend and everything else as well. Um it just makes me happy uh to say if I'm showing up this way and it didn't work out, at least I showed up as in as the most honest person in this specific situation. Um it just gives me a certain level of peace and ownership to all the things across you know my personal life and professional life. And um, very, very recently, probably within the last year or so, I've gotten just very confident with advocating for myself. I've always been blessed to have advocates like my wife and also some mentors who have who've spoken my name in rooms that I could never even dream of being in. Um and very recently I've been able to do that for myself, to say this is my worth, to say this is how I believe I've showed up as a leader, this is how I should be paid. Uh, this is how I believe um my team should be paid. Conversations I would have shrunken at uh years ago. Um, but I just have a a newfound confidence um within myself and for, I think it's important for the people around me as well. As we transition and get older, uh those mentors are going to be around and as active in your life as well, too. And then you have people looking up to you as well to also be an advocate for them and holding the door open for them. I've I've personally had a chance to uh hire some some colleagues from our personal network or actually an individual that we met six, no, uh yeah, 16 years ago uh at a chain group almost, no, almost 14 years, 12 or so years ago as well. At the first job that we had, I ended up hiring him or referring him into Twitter and then hiring him at Event Right. So just being an advocate for individuals like that, I think it just means the world to me. And I can't do that unless I'm authentically advocating for who I am as well, um, and standing in my own truth. And that's what makes me happy is uh as a person professionally and uh personally.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

You also talked a lot about like the importance of community and I can see to terms of like having like um being a mentor as something that's like really important to you at this chapter in your life as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

Yeah, absolutely. Um I've always been like my house was the house where all the kids hung out on the front porch. My dad hated it. We tore up the yard, we played football, uh, and like they'd be over the house eating all his food in the refrigerator. But that was always my home growing up. And so I've been, I've had, I've had the privilege, the wonderful privilege to have the same group of friends since I've been like in the fifth grade. Um and we've kind of matriculated through life together. I've seen them have children. They've I'm got I'm a godparent to almost like six kids now. Uh and it's just it's awesome. And to see them us all grow together and change, you know, you're a different man at 18, 21, 23, married, homeowner, father. Uh, and so seeing all those things, I think has always been uh a pillar for me in terms of prioritizing the community everywhere I've been. Um and because I've had that at such a young age, especially being a middle child, when you're so far uh away from your younger uh sibling, and then your older brother is also a little bit older and doing his own things, I had to go out and create for myself. Um and so that group of men has matriculated through through my life. And also, too, we've been we've lived in Virginia, DC, uh, Arizona, San Francisco, now Houston, and we've been able to create hubs. Uh that's why we have 50 people coming to our our murder party, right? Because we um I value community so much. And as much as it's important for them, it's probably more important for us. It gives it fills me up to to open up my home, to host. We host the Super Bowl party uh as well. So we always try to continue to do those things because now now more than ever, people need safe spaces. And I I try to do that in my personal life because it gives me so much peace to see smiles on individuals' faces, my friends and family, and also do that same thing uh in my professional life as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

I love it. And you also had shared that you you tend to think about like how you think about prioritization in terms of like pillars, right? So for you, you mentioned it's uh it was like three primary pillars, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Yeah, so my pillars are faith, family, and fitness. And I found myself like as any father, like just getting overwhelmed uh by all the things that I try to just check off a list. Uh, and I found when I make the target a little bit smaller and I focus in on just uh a few things and I create a system in which mediocrity can't live in those three things, right? I'm not gonna be mediocre as a father, I'm not gonna be mediocre as um you know someone in my faith, and I I dang sure don't want to be mediocre in my fitness, right? And so those three things, when I find myself checking off those three boxes, uh everything else kind of falls in place, right? And so I have that system, I feel alive, I feel present, uh, I don't feel overwhelmed by all the other things that come with life when I'm doing those three things on a consistent basis, working out, being present, um, you know, being one with my my faith as well. So when I check those boxes, I feel centered, I feel happy, I feel at peace. Um, and then that bleeds into how I show up as a professional as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

I love that. Jasmine, do you think in terms of like the like high-level pillars as well, or does your mind kind of operate in a different way?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

How do you naturally, honestly, yeah? Like I think those are like my main ones. Um and I think like just in general, like we do have a lot of the just the same values, like core values. Like I think I said this earlier, like our prep, like our theme for this year is community. And not that it hasn't always been community, like that is such an important part of just you know who we are as people and how we show up for others is just so important. But this year, I just feel like um in maybe the previous years, not that we slipped away from it, but we did like just like those small like community connections. Like we love to just have touch points all the time. And I think in a world where everything is like about aesthetics and being curated, like I I personally just love like every single week, I'd love to have my friends over or vice versa, like just creating moments for us to get together. And I felt like, and sometimes a lot of people maybe could resonate with this, like if it's not like a moment, like something curated, like you don't really do it. Like I've I love having those times where, and this is something that is sometimes hard because community can be inconvenient. Like maybe I just want to sit around one Sunday and not have friends over. But once you do, you realize the importance of it and how much you actually needed it. But I like to just say, come over for no reason. Like, I don't have a real reason. It's not gonna be an Instagrammable moment, but we're gonna hang out and connect and love it. My house might not be the cleanest right now. My my child might not have had a nap and she might be really, really grumpy, but like let's be the candidate, let's hang out. Um, I think that's something when I say community, and I heavy on that inconvenience piece because it can be, yeah, but I do think it's so worth it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:33

You cannot want community and then have an aversion to inconvenience. Yeah, you have to be okay with being inconvenienced that comes with the territory. Um, to your point, I I you know I double check on or double tap on all those points, plus plus one.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Plus one.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's actually like a really good point. Like thinking about it, it's like, okay, you have to, it's it's any of the things that I I think for the most part, most things that are most valuable in life, like take a lot of they take work. Like even if it's like really things that create a lot of joy, uh, right, which we'll talk about in a minute too, Jasmine. Like you talk about the difference between like the importance of joy and and the nuanced difference between joy and happiness. Um, you know, a lot of the things that are most fulfilling, right? Like they're it's hard work, right? Like family is another one. Like what I've learned is like if you want to have a close relationships with family, it's like it there's there's an element of like work. I don't know if I call inconvenience, but like you know, you there's an element of work that goes into maintaining those relationships, and you have to really make that happen, right? Like same with like even just health, right? Like it can be inconvenient to work out every day, it could be really hard. I mean, I try to, it doesn't always happen. Um I wish I could just hit a button and not have to wake up.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:45

Yeah, I'm gonna just talk about you have to be intentional about the things that are that that don't come easy. Um, fitness, whatever it might be, um, just an intentionality. It does take it's a lift.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

A lot of things worth having to have.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

Yeah, hard to have for sure. I think the community is like a really interesting one too. Has me thinking about like, you know, my priorities and probably making that more because I I think that that is the one that slips for a lot of people, right? Because you get so wrapped up in like family and work, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Yeah. So you're like, yeah, who has time for friends? But then when you really peel back the layers and you realize, okay, why don't we have time? Why can't you like our so our friends? Um, we mentioned one of our goddaughter, goddaughters, she's five minutes away from us. And we realized last year we let so much time slip for what reason? Like we were realizing we're actually at home and in our you know individual homes doing the same thing. Why not come over and we do it together? Like our daughters can, you know, hang out, they're six months apart. And I think it was like last weekend we all knew like we wanted to do a Sunday night prep for work. That's something that we always kind of do. Let's all do it together. And the girls can hang out. And like it doesn't have to be like this big thing where you know we're we are just paying attention to each other the whole time and we have you know these extravagant things happening. It's just like small things that just we have to be intentional with. And if one of us wasn't intentional with it, which you know we hadn't been in the past for a few, you know, times, then it would it just wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:11

I I'll say it's it's easy for us too, because we hold each other accountable. Um like we're complete opposites in terms of like our social you you said very recently that our social batteries are similar. Once I get outside or I start and I start socializing, I can I'm an introvert by nature, but once I flip the switch, you probably would never tell. But most times I'm like, I get I have to recharge. Um, it takes a lot for me to get up and go and do. And she is my yang in that sense where she'll make me get up and go and do. Once I get up and go and do, I love doing it. Um so holding each other accountable in that sense as well. And then also, too, sometimes she'll say, Hey, I know we signed up for it. Because I always agree to things when I have energy. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Then uh the time will come to cash the check. I'm like, why did I agree to that? Um, but it's always worth it when we actually get up and do it. Um and you feel recharged in doing that as well. So having that accountability partner who also knows what gives you strength, and when you also tell can tell, like, maybe tonight's not the best day, and we both kind of agree on that, it's good to have an home.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:12

Yeah, so Jasmine, one of the things that you told me is uh how much you emphasize in your own life thinking about like living uh a life of gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

Oh yeah, for sure. I think I'm I'm just in such a season of gratitude, and I think just that mindset shift for me has been so like pivotal in like how I show up every day. I think as a mom, a wife, a sister, a friend, like I think just and just how I kind of view like the world. I think life can be so hard sometimes. There's so many things that happen in life, but I think when you're intentional with gratitude and just really as you know, cliche as it can sound, looking at the glass half full, not half empty, it really like that subtle shift can just bring such a difference in your life. And it has for me, like just being thankful for the things I have. Like I literally wake up and I'm remembering the things that I'm thankful for, like just I don't know, my cup of coffee, or you know, like that I can be at home and work, that I can, you know, get ready with my daughter and take actually be able to take her to school and not have to rush it, like things like that. I always remember, even though it could be something that's like inconvenienced at the time. But I think the gratitude piece and then coupling that with like joy, like I think joy, and you kind of mentioned this too, the difference between joy and happiness. Happiness can be fleeting, it can be situational, but joy is something that you choose to have, and that you choose, like no matter what the circumstances, good or bad, you just believe that whatever is happening is gonna work out for you, it's working in your favor, and just having joy in everything, um, no matter what the circumstances. So I think having that mindset is something today that I'm really, you know, striving to live by. And then work in progress every single day, like it's easier said than done. But I think when you looked at like the question we asked is like, who are you becoming and like what do you want to become? I would hope that I, you know, keep living my life like that. And I look back and I remember all of these hard situations and just being proud of myself, like looking at the resilience that my grandparents, my ancestors, my mother, like those situations that were really tough that they had. And then me, I know that I can look back and be proud of how they showed up and how they were as women, and they're my role models. If I can look back and, you know, things that I've gone through, um, that I had this shift and knowing that I got through it, or that mindset knowing that I got through it, and was that role model for my daughter. Like, I think I would love to be that woman, and I hope that's who I am becoming.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:41

You know, I and I was gonna say the same thing. I I know you do that. Um, and you also, it's not just personal, it's professional as well. Like you, I think there's so much, and you we talk about this all the time, like the way that people view you, they know like your energy will affect the room, good or bad. And you have to intentionally flip that switch. And the intentionality behind that is I think that's the most impressive piece about it. It's it's so easy for us to be like, oh, well, it's an early morning and to drag, and then you know, your child sees that, and then or the first person that you open your laptop and have that meeting with, they see that as well, and then you're off to a bad start. So kudos to you. You know, I took my cap giving you flowers for actually leading that charge of being what you're saying as well on a daily basis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:21

Yeah, I feel like the like you talk about too, like the energy, like how you show up in the room. And like I I think I've I've really I think about that a lot more now as a parent. And it's like one of the things that I've like I've I remind myself of is like sometimes, okay, like when I'm in like dad mode, often like it's at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:41

Like after like we're in a people business and it can it's like it's messy. Like we're dealing with like it's like chaos, right? And so it's like, okay, like the most important job I have, like the most important thing I have to do today is also the last thing I have to do when I'm like I'm tired and you know, and all that is like so it's like being really intentional. I think maybe Jasmine, like you said it best if you can approach it from this place of gratitude of like this is like I'm so fortunate to be able to be here and in this in whatever situation, despite challenges, right? Um, because we are so lucky, right? Like we're so lucky to have the careers that we do, the families that we do. Um, you know, particularly when you like turn on the news for like two seconds these days, it's like it's crazy right now. You know, I I really also I like how you kind of differentiate the idea of like joy and and like happiness, like joy to me, like the word that comes to mind is like fulfillment.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:35

Yeah, I agree completely. Yeah. Fulfillment and like and not and I don't even it's not a place of like complacency or anything like that either. Like, I'm not saying that, but just fulfillment and content. Like I am happy, I know that I'm not happy, but I have joy in knowing that I am, in my opinion, like I live by this, I am where I'm supposed to be, and the things that are happening are working out for me. Like, even if it's a hard thing, I went through a layoff, I found the joy in that. I know it sounds so crazy to see, and I know like people talk about like toxic positivity. I don't think there's any such thing for me in my life. That's just what I believe. And I think that's what got me through that, and how I was able to so quickly overcome that situation because I got up every day with a positive outlook and realizing there's just something better for me. And there was like that just shift, and that's just one thing. But there's so many things.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:25

We were actually just talking about that, about how many people actually don't know uh that you were laid off and we actually celebrated your five-year Google versus that day, uh, or the next day.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

I think my Google versary, the fifth year was like maybe that day, or the next it was like two days later or something, but we were already talking about it coming up. And I was in the first round, so the one of those 12,000 emails, that was me. This was 25. Yeah, I got that email, and we still and I I'm not gonna say I wasn't upset and sad, of course. Like I agreed, like not being able to do it on my own timing, not be able to say bye to all of my colleagues. But we went out that day, I shut down my computer, I did not work that day, obviously. We and Darien took off and we went around, we went and got food, all my favorite food spots. We went to um happy hour. Darian actually ended up, he got me a cake and he was like, Happy Google versus. Like, we're gonna remember this is five big years that you had, no matter what they did and how they you know ended it. I am very thankful of the relationships, of the you know, um, experience, just so many beautiful things that happened there, such a beautiful chapter. And you know what? I got to go have another opportunity that day. My boss, who had already left Google um and he went to Zscaler, hit me up that same day and said, I have the perfect opportunity for you. Same day. For you, and literally, so I got to leave and they paid me to leave to go to another really good job. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:48

So you get like a like a bonus essentially.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:51

That that uh package was great. Thanks, Google.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

We don't talk that on Google with something. Uh and but I I think to really put a bow on it too, it's really just happened. We talk about this all the time. Uh, the blessing it is to have a sound mind and the ability to rationalize your issues and to it's not toxic positivity. I think it's just bringing logic and rationality to this issue. It's like I'm going to get through it. Um, it's not the end of the world. I still have air in my lungs, I still have clothes in my back, I have food in my belly. What next? How do we solve the next problem? And the ability to rationalize that because not everyone has a sound mind. Sometimes that layoff can send someone off the deep end, right? And you've you've given 20 years to a Google and they send you an email in the middle of the night. You don't know how to make sense of that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:37

And I understand that. And this is not me saying that you can't be that person. 100%. I'm just saying, like, I'm very grateful to have this mindset. And I know it's not a one size fits all, and I know it's not, you can't just say, hey, just how about you try being happy, or how about you try having joy? Like, like sometimes to your point, like you can't. Maybe it is a mental or chemical thing or whatever the case is. But for me, that's something I really do value. I'm just very um fortunate to have um and I realize it's not.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

Well, it's not easy, but it's um yeah, it's I think it's like it's critically important, right? Like to kind of manage your mental state throughout like big transitions, right? And then I like and maybe also just reminding ourselves too, it's like that this is the problem today or in this chapter, or maybe even for the next year or two. I mean, like sometimes like it seems like the older you get, sometimes like the the longer and harder it is to pull up out of a you know, you know, these problems just get bigger, right? You know, but um I think it is really important because it's like there's I feel like a lot of we maybe it's just humans, like we have we can have a tendency to focus on like what's wrong versus what's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:47

Um, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

Yeah, I think that's a natural inclination. You your default is to think about the bad um and prioritize that and put a highlight on that. It's it's it's human to your point.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

Yeah, I know I hear this a lot from uh, and maybe this is common knowledge at this point, I don't know. Um, but I I hear it a lot from a lot of the most successful leaders and and not just like professional leaders, like just like successful people. I mean that term like broadly, like successful in life. Um but, anyways, guys, I know we're we're coming up on time here, so um, I just wanted to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. Um, it's been great like having the opportunity to learn from both of you and to hear about like your life experience and how you both have worked together to support each other to be the best version of yourselves. It was a really interesting episode. It felt really nice being able to switch it up, and uh, I just genuinely enjoyed uh this conversation. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

Thank you. I had such a good time, and uh I know hopefully I know this is about us, but it was nice, even like your tidbits and things that you mentioned. I would love to, I didn't want to like take the mic from you and like interview you, but like, yeah, it sounds like you just had a lot of wealth of knowledge and so many cool things happening. So it's it's we're honored to be here, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:01

Yeah, no, thank you for reaching. We don't get to tell our our story often. We actually don't like to, like, in terms of like, I don't know, being the center of attention, like it is a unique story, right? And like we well, and um sometimes I feel like it can overshadow whatever other uh other issues there are because we know we've been you know very, very lucky and blessed to be in this position, to have known each other so long as well, too. So this was nice. I kind of enjoyed talking talking through this story and kind of walking down memory lane about carpool. Seriously, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:31

I'm gonna go to carpool read out.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:33

Yeah, actually it it I'm glad we talked about that because I actually I think I am gonna try to take my team there uh sometime soon. I don't know, look at my calendar for Friday. It's probably I we'll see.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

Next time we're in town. Yeah, yes, you guys do you still visit?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:47

Uh yeah, all the time. We do. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:49

Okay. Yeah, I don't know about that area as much, but we'll we'll definitely be out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:55

Yeah. Well, if you're out there, like we can maybe meet somewhere like in the in the middle or something like that. No, it has to be carpal.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

It won't make yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:03

Let's do it. Let's go to carpool when you when are you guys coming to town?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:06

Um well, we'll be in Baltimore, but that's so short. Probably come up to Baltimore April for your family reunion. Oh, in June, too. Yeah, we'll be in the area in June. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:15

June? Yeah. Are we gonna do this? Oh, we have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

And we'll find we can just find IED.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:22

And come down. It's right there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:25

It's all right.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:26

It's uh and then that way I can hear all about the uh murdery murder mystery.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

Yes, and then I'll be right after it.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:34

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:36

And then we can find you and your amazing life.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:39

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it'd be great to get to know you guys better.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:41

Uh change grow dad notes.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:44

Yeah, yeah, I got lots of stories there. Yeah, I feel like we probably could have recorded for another hour or two. It's just um a lot of stuff that we can maybe we can do this again.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:54

Well, thanks again, James. Thanks for watching.