EP 21: Breaking down the in-office breakdown and the rise of individualized management w/ best selling author Jeff Arnold

4x best-selling author Jeff Arnold joins the show to discuss the challenges with managing employees who span generations, individualized management, building a culture remotely, leadership challenges, and a lot more!

Episode Chapters

00:20 Who is Jeff Arnold?

01:15 Generational breakdown on how the Last 3 Years Have Challenged Everything

05:32 Challenges with managing employees who span generations, and individualized management

11:30 What mistakes companies are making when it comes to talent

14:25 Can culture be built remotely?

16:58 The challenges with distraction

21:01 Psychology of success

25:25 Lessons learned from tough times

27:11 There are no easy leadership moments

30:45 Transitioning from trial-and-error to experienced leadership

33:25 The importance of investing in executive coaching

38:00 How to contact Jeff

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Today we are joined by Jeff Arnold. Jeff, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Hey, thank you so much, James. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah, and we're really happy to host you. So thank you for coming on the show today. Before we jump into some of the topics that I know we we want to discuss, would you mind telling everybody a little bit about yourself and what you're currently up to?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yeah, sure. Thanks for that opportunity. So

Who is Jeff Arnold?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Jeff Jeff Arnold's the name, right? Been in the uh the technology and financial services space for 30 plus years. I am an aged man, but uh and most recently have uh taken to giving back to the community and written um five books. So fortunate that four of them are best sellers on Amazon. Um, and so the 30,000-foot takeaway is part author, part uh technology uh founder, and then uh part insurance geek, right? So those three wrapped in uh plus probably father and husband. That's that's a simple description of my life. How's that?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, that's great. Thank you. That's uh that's good to know where you're coming from and what you're working on. Thank you. Um so you know, one of the one of the things that we we wanted to talk about today is is really just strategies as it pertains to um uh attracting and retaining talent. And I would I would love to kind of get your thoughts on on what's going on from your perspective, you know, buzzy term, kind of great resignation, but um, you know, what what

Generational Breakdown on how the Last 3 Years Have Challenged Everything

SPEAKER_01 2:01

you know in terms of what you're seeing companies do or what you think strategies should be for uh attracting and retaining talent, like what kind of trends are you are you seeing and what are you essentially recommending in terms of how companies can can get the best possible results?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, great. Thanks for that broad question. Yeah, we'll unpack that all day, right? No, uh so I would submit this to your listeners, right? Uh no matter uh where you're at on your leadership or your management or your skill set, um, the last three years has challenged the way you've done everything as a leader, as a manager, how you codify, lead, you know, um move people to the next level. It's just um it's it's called a of course the the great resignation or the great reset or whatever, but uh deep inside it's really people looking to be valued, right? Um to be re-recruited, to be shown that they matter. Um, and it just so happens that um you have to, as a leader, I hate to use this word, but bifurcate, right? You have to almost bifurcate or stereotype, if you may, or if you will, by generation, right? And I say because you have to be thinking that there are really four generations at play in the workplace now. And I know your listeners don't need me to go through them all, but let's just hit a hit, you know, just quickly run through to unpack this. And so we do have baby boomers um who, if you know, if their employer asked them to work 40 hours, they would give them 70 hours with no question asked and stay until the job's done. That's just how they are. Whatever it takes to get it done, that's how they did it, right? Then you had Gen X, right? The the wasted generation, as they call them, because MTV was going to destroy their minds and Gilligan's reruns were gonna, you know, make them in the marketplace. Well, they've hold most of the CEOs in mid-market and the glory and fame of middle management spaces right now, right? And so it's a little different than the baby boomer mindset, but still, if you ask them 40 hours, they'll give you 50 or 60 hours. You pivot to millennial or Gen Z, there's just a different expectation for each of them. And millennials are show me how I matter, show me where I fit in. Um, and a lot of times they want to do self-service or find the answers for themselves, as do Gen Zs online. And so, you know, the Gen X Cup would drink from the fount of knowledge from um a baby boomer or the greatest generation or the silent generation before that. But the same, at least I submit to in my leadership experience in running companies with hundreds and thousands of employees, it just pivoted at the millennial and the Gen Z, and they'll find the answers themselves. And so people in the Gen X and the baby boomer roles are finding they're not being asked for knowledge so much as just because though that other generation will solve it for themselves. And so, if you manage that, it's a lot of words to say this. If you manage that anywhere along the spectrum of an organization, you without using the word stereotype, you have to place them into how they learn, how they want to be rewarded, how they want to be re-recruited. If you apply the same template to every generation, you're going to miss three of the four generations. And so it's a really long-winded answer, James, but that's that's my takeaway on the subject matter there.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Well, yeah, that's interesting. So I like I like how you broke it down on uh uh generation level, and you're talking about how they want to be recognized and rewarded and and how those uh can be different. Um, you know, it's interesting, it's like we're on the 20th episode. I don't think we've actually talked about that angle before, so I'm really excited to to dive a little bit deeper into that. Um, I guess it's it's how when you're working in an organization that has uh individuals that come from different generations, how do you balance those things when you think about uh how to reward individuals? It is it just as simple as saying, like, look, managers need to be in tune and trained and have access to coaching and resources that allow them to provide a situational approach to um to how they how they lead members on their team? Or is there something like more so like a high-level C-level strategy that has to be implemented in terms of this is what benefits should look like, or this

Challenges with managing employees who span generations, and individualized management

SPEAKER_01 6:18

is how we communicate our values and our culture? Um, how do you how do you really execute that strategy when you have a diverse um uh group of employees that come from different generations?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, I I think you've uh you've struck on a great subject matter. Uh, and it's it probably boils down to the leader, the executive, and their mindset, right? Um, what what you have to be in a manager in this day and age is you have to be very pliable, malleable, bendable, flexible, right? You have to be all those things because again, each subset is going to challenge you in a different way, right? Um the the millennials get a lot of bad uh bad press, unfairly in my mind, right? But here's what you have to think is there are so many millennials. So we go back to the baby boomers. Forever that was the largest generation, and then it was um the Gen Xis, which is a much smaller generation, and the millennials, which is the largest generation, period, right? Of all the segments, that's the largest, and then the Gen Z behind that. And so millennials are loud and large and encompass such a large percentage of the workforce now that you have to not uh you have to kind of uh bend to that, right? Because that's driving um the future, and that is the future. The disconnect for executives for leaders is I don't want to call it a bad work ethic. The work ethic is so different, it's so much me first or uh vacation first or results first. I don't mean anything derogatory about this, it's just again, baby boomer and Gen X. If you said you got to be at work at eight, they were there at seven, they didn't go home until it was done, and it's shifted. There's a definite pivot in the expectation of I want to work anywhere and I'm out at 39 and a half hours and I'm not taking it home with me. Again, it's not bad, it's different. And so workplace culture is different, workplace time, workplace timelines to get stuff done is different. If you're scheduling large projects with deadlines, you have to think differently when you have four generations because they're all gonna approach it differently. So uh again, we could we could spin forever, but the quick takeaway there is if you're an executive or a leader or a recruiter in this space, you have to ask these very important questions about what is the role of this individual? What is this individual's belief set? How do you re-recruit this individual? Because you're gonna re-recruit somebody like me different than you're gonna re-recruit a Gen Z, right? A person who's 23 or 24. So you just have to be cognizant, aware, focused on what moves the needle for them.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Okay, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's um, you know, one thing that I I feel like a topic I keep coming back to is this concept of like, yes, at an organizational level, there are things that we can do to provide competitive benefits and you know, providing employee surveys and doing things that are more of like a scalable motion to uh creating great experiences for for people uh and and helping them achieve the best outcomes at work. But also to some extent, you can't scale relationships, like you have to talk to people and have real conversations and understand how they're wired and how they like to receive uh, you know, whether it be respect or be rewarded or whatever else or their communication style. Not everything is a scale motion, right? That you can just kind of automate. Like sometimes it really does come down to situational leadership and get really knowing the people on your team and what they need in order to uh produce the the best outcomes and have the best possible experience.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

That's very valuable. I love that. I'm actually gonna be stealing that from you because they're not scalable, right? You're absolutely right. You have to, as a as a leader or even a coworker, you have to figure out which levers you need to pull to get the results from this teammate or this employee or even your manager. You have to manage them sometimes, right? You gotta figure out which lever to pull. And so it's not manipulation, it's like, look, we got to get a job done. Your manager could be the roadblock, your employees could be the roadblock. What thing can you manipulate to move it forward, right? It could be words of affirmation, it could be a challenge, it could be just just giving them the ball and letting them run with it. You have to figure out where they're where they're at, right? Um, and what we find, uh what I find, because um I'm in a space in my career, um, you know, you you spend your first 10 to 12 years learning in your career space, and then 20 to 28 years earning, right? And then you spend the last part of your career, if you're fortunate, giving back, right? And so my sole function now into our mid-level and senior level executives is to give back, right? Um, to transfer some of that knowledge with the full understanding that the companies that they run in the future are vastly different than the companies that I ran. I mean, because technology has affected everything, changed everything, enhanced, improved everything. And so, as I'm coming up, it was more about you know task and deadlines and managing resources. Now there's an app for that or software as a service for a lot of that. And so just being aware of that. So the point I was trying to make there is at this point in my life, it's giving back, but also understanding what each person needs to feel valued and to challenge them, right? You also can't challenge them differently. You can't be direct with everyone, you destroy them. And the main thing, if anybody takes anything away from any of your conversations, it's this. You must find a way to correct behavior without destroying the person, right? The moment you destroy the person in your insult or your recommendation or whatever, they have checked out from you and they are looking for somewhere else, or they aren't as engaged. So you have to always be aware and ask yourself, how can I correct behavior without destroying this person? So just a valid key takeaway for anyone.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, that's uh that's a really good one. That's definitely very valuable. And I and I wanted to to ask you more about um other other mistakes that

What mistakes companies are making when it comes to talent

SPEAKER_01 12:16

you're seeing companies make. Like I always kind of like there's always it's always good to talk about upside and how to optimize, but I always like to start with mistakes. Like, what are the holes that companies can fall into? So I if we could kind of continue, if we can go down that path a little bit, um, what are some of the biggest I guess mistakes you're seeing out there in the market when it comes to people's approach to talent and people? Um are there any other kind of holes that that talent leaders out there and CEOs out there listening in are can can kind of hear from you in terms of what they need to do to get good outcomes or really avoid catastrophe and have a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah, well, for luckily for us, we don't have to look far, right? Because if there's a way to do it wrong, yours truly has has done it wrong, right? So yeah, and those are the most expensive lessons and the most valuable lessons. So this is an easy one, right? So uh if you just back up two or three years before COVID hit, right? We're very results-driven organization. There's deadlines, there's timelines, there's goals, there's tasks, there's objectives, right? And as a leader, you manage to objectives, objectives, either by quarter or profitability, or whatever metric you're being measured upon, what gets measured gets done, and that's what drives you. In comes COVID. All of a sudden, it takes longer to get stuff done. There's a mental health awareness that you have to be made aware of, right? And you can't charge as hard or charge as fast as you used to. And so we talk about failures right here. I enter COVID, everyone's working remote. We got them all over the world. We have them uh Vietnam, Malaysia, Mexico, six or eight different states, Canada, they're all over. And I'm expecting the same results. I still have one foot on the gas, man, right? I mean, it's in drive and we're moving, right? We got shareholder results, we got quarterly results, everything that any executive faces, plus profitability. But really quickly, uh the wheels start coming off when you're trying to charge really hard or drive results really hard. And COVID or all this masked telecommuting forced me, and I'm sure it forced other leaders to be more empathetic, right? To slow down, check in. Hey, how are you mentally? Now that's not, admittedly, that is not a skill set or a managerial thing in your quiver of management skills that is readily available for everyone because managers don't get brought on for their empathy, right? They excuse my friends, they just get shit done. I'm sorry, right? That's why that's why you're a manager, right? And so we're not off, no, but you had to develop that skill set if you want to remain relevant and viable uh and part of a team. And so uh what I see failures was internally, right? I I had to take one foot off the gas or take it off the gas a little, pump the brakes and just check in with people. Um, and now we're seeing uh kind of something similar where half the people are back, but some people don't want to return for whatever reason. There's a lot of anxiety about returning, and then others will raise the flag, well, I'm way more productive

Can culture be built remotely?

SPEAKER_00 15:11

at home. But the problem with that, and I challenge everyone, culture cannot be built remotely. I I've tried endlessly, we've gone through all kinds of team building online stuff. Culture happens eyeball to eyeball, belly button to belly button, face to face. And so we, every company is surrendering their culture to validate and to uphold this telecommuting thing. Again, I didn't say telecommuting was bad, but every company culture is suffering because of that. And that's what differentiates and validates companies is their culture. So I would just say this that one of the failures that we're gonna see moving forward from companies during this is just a lack of developed culture. It's just too tough to do remotely.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

So it is, and and getting back to empathy, right? I think that's that's another challenge. It's it's when you're so when people are detached from each other and they're you know jumping on the occasional Zoom call, but they're not actually meeting in person. I think, I think some empathy, it's we risk empathy being lost along the way. And so it's just very important, particularly for people in leadership, I think, to really slow down and ensure, like, okay, am I communicating in such a way that that communicates empathy along with whatever expectations or coaching or or or or standards or whatever you want to, you know, whatever it could be, am I also communicating on the human level and making sure that I'm meeting that human need and I'm I'm being empathetic and I'm being understanding? Uh, because it's it's different, you know, when you when you build a relationship with somebody in person, right? And you're you're you know, you're you're building more of that rapport and you're having more of just kind of laid back conversations and and you get to really know somebody on a personal level. Um, I think that that there's there's something about that that creates more empathy, right? I mean, is that do you do you do you see it from that perspective as well? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah, 100% agree with you, right? And so, how do you balance that? You want to be an empathetic organization because you need to, because at the beginning of this conversation, we talk about the generations, right? And the last two generations, the empathy is a requirement now, right? It is no longer just a great thing, it's a requirement now that you're empathetic and sympathetic to our needs. Um, but as a company, you still have to get stuff done. So, you know, I I challenge our our mid-level managers this way all the time, that not to their great dissatisfaction, I might add, but I say, listen, uh, two things are truthful about all your employees working from home and even the office. Everyone, and I mean everyone, these days, are driven to distraction, right? There are so many social media apps, so many websites, so many shiny blinky things that everyone is driven to distraction.

The challenges with distraction

SPEAKER_00 17:45

As a leader, you have to be aware where you're driven and buckle down and get through that for at least an hour, hour and a half a day. If you're not moving it forward, your organization's not moving forward, and your team isn't moving forward. Because if you're driven to distraction, that you're part of the problem. So having people understand that you too are driven to distraction, just be aware of it. You can't escape it. There's a new app, there's a new shiny software, there's new something everywhere, there's a new stock that you want to follow, right? There's a new income stream, but you're driven to distraction. Just be aware of that. And then the other thing I tell them, which of course is met with some some resistance, is I just submit to your staff and to your team that you're not overworked, you're overwhelmed. There's so much distraction, so much going on that you're confusing overworked with overwhelmed because now you know we have people going, I need more help, I need more help. Our volume hasn't grown, the workload hasn't grown. You're overwhelmed from so many other things in your life. So we got to stop being driven to distraction and stop being overwhelmed. So those are just two, you know, again, those aren't always received uh graciously when I'm giving truth bombs out like that, but I think they resonate with most people. And if you're real with yourself, you'll you'll drink that in and say, Yeah, that's a vitamin I should take.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

It's uh that's really good advice. Uh, I think just right now, I'm seeing that just as a as a leader. Uh, there's just so much craziness and and things going on in the world, and I think it it is quite overwhelming uh for for a lot of people, right? So um you're right. It's like you don't want to just completely you know put the blinders on and not be aware of what's going on in the world around you, but it's it's finding the right balance to where you can still be effective and show up as your best self with your family, uh, you know, your kids, your, your, your and professionally, right? Um, it's it's it's a balancing act. And I think, you know, maybe some of that just comes with having more life experience, you know, and and and growing up and and having gone through it for you know uh for for a while. I think maybe that's something that you know, maybe, maybe people hopefully uh grow and and and and and can kind of find that balance better as they kind of progress toward you know later in their career and whatnot. Um but yeah, that's a really good point. And I had actually not thought about it from that perspective, the overworked versus overwhelmed. I feel like that's a really that's a really uh interesting insight. Um, I'd appreciate you sharing that with me today.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Again, it's not always received graciously and and and tough news is never easy to deliver, but but I think if there's a lot of fact and a lot of truth behind it, right? And if you get past the anger, it resonates. Um, and several of our staff have said to me, Hey, driving uh on a long trip, I got to digest what you were saying. At first it really stung. I felt like I was swallowing a fish hook, but then later, hey, old man, you weren't wrong. I just wasn't ready to hear that yet. And so, right, it's kind of it's kind of rewarding. So as long as people are aware of it, you can move through it, right? And and you know, there the demands on your life are so extreme. If you're a husband, if you're a father, if you're a wife, if you're a spouse, whatever, um, those demands are there on top of everything else, on top of providing up, on top of putting a roof over your head. There are so many demands that you could be distracted by everything. You owe it to yourself, to your future self, and to your leader self to have some quiet time alone. If it's not with the journal, with the to-do list, that's just focus on that. No social media, no email. Nobody move the world forward with email and social media, right? They had to do some quiet, introspective work, right? So it's still be quiet, focus on you and future you. That's uh some some takeaways.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

That's good, that's good advice. Um, so maybe we can pivot a little bit because I I feel like you have a really kind of intuitive uh perspective, and you're very good at I think simplifying these types of concepts that are deal with you know life philosophy towards success and uh as well as just uh psychology. Like you you seem to from my you know, from this interaction, uh obviously the first time we've had a chance to really deep dive and do this, but uh you seem to be very good at this. So I

Psychology of success

SPEAKER_01 21:47

would love to kind of just go down this path a little bit. So let's just take a step back from talent acquisition. Like, what are what are some of the other key things that you share with your team um in terms of just like general success psychology? And I don't mean like success only through the lens of like money and titles, right? I mean, that's obviously part of it. And that's you know, first it's like that's that's important to a lot of people, and that's okay. That's good. I mean, you know, that's important to me too. I I just you know, it's it's obviously more holistically. I'm I'm curious whether it's it's it has to do with like financial success, career success, or just overall just living life to the fullest. Do you have any other kind of um advice that you share with your team that's similar to what what you just shared with with me? Any other kind of pointers or tips?

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yeah, some. Um, so you have to be um, you know, I've been doing this 31 years, so I'm aware now, and I didn't know this even 15 years ago. You again, I'm in the stage where I want to give back, but that doesn't mean that everyone on our team is really to sit at my feet, listen, and drink in what I have to spew out. Right, there has to be a willingness and a readiness on the top on the part of that person, and you need to realize that because otherwise you're wasting your words and you're wasting your time and you're wasting your energy. And so, uh, on two notes here, if you're a leader or an executive trying to give back, be aware that you're just sowing seed in an infertile ground that's not going to grow and stop planting that seed, right? Focus it where it's going to grow. Conversely, if you're somebody who's sitting at the feet of a leader or hoping to stand on their shoulders and move ahead in the future, let them know that you appreciate. You don't have to agree with everything they say. No one agrees with anything 100% of anybody says, but drink in that knowledge. And so, on both fronts, as a leader, make sure you're not just wasting your time and energy in planting seeds that aren't going to grow if they don't want to hear. And I could, you know, every leader knows that I could say a dozen things to some of our people and they will push back. Well, Google says it this way. Well, Google only says based upon the limited input you gave, I'm giving you 30 years worth of leadership experience of how this ship could go off course. And so they have to come come to the understanding that. So one of the greatest things I've ever been able to do is stand on the shoulders of two exceptional men that three tried to teach me in my life, two, I was smart enough to shut up and learn from them. Uh, and I got to be elevated and catapulted into the executive level suite because I stood on their shoulders, right? It wasn't all the Jeff Arnold's work. It was like, oh, somebody dumped a lot of information and knowledge and skill sets into me, and I was ready and I listened. So just be aware of that. If you're just starting out, there's a mentor out there for you. May not be your first, and when you're ready and your heart's ready, that teacher will come. So that's a little f uh philosophical, but that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

No, it's I I think it's really important. I mean, I I um I mean, for me, I I I really buy into the importance of psychology and just your general life philosophy. I mean, quite honestly, I think probably Tony Robbins has had a bigger impact on me more than any other human being uh on this planet. I mean, I I really early in my career dived into everything about psychology success, um, getting the most out of life. It doesn't mean that I I was always able to execute it uh to the fullest. I've obviously made a ton of mistakes just like everybody else, but um, you know, I I think net I'm probably up as a result of investing in that, you know, understanding psychology and understanding, like as you said, it's like, you know, and it's just it's there's so much to it, right? Like one of the lessons you just shared is yeah, like even if if somebody has a different leadership style that maybe is optimized for how you prefer to learn, or you know, maybe you you you not a hundred percent of your values are completely aligned or your interests are completely aligned, just making sure that you you're always open to to to you know, be humble enough to to listen and to really, you know, take the time to to learn as much as you can, right? Um it's just uh it's it's just incredibly important to to just always kind of like remain the remain the student, right? Um and and kind of keep an open mind to to learning as much as you can from every experience. And you know, just to kind of to follow up on that, I I also one

Lessons learned from tough times

SPEAKER_01 26:11

thing I've learned throughout the years is that many times it's like the the the hardest, like the obstacles that you go through, right? Um that when it's like when the things when things aren't going your way uh are are generally the best lessons that we have in life. I mean, those are those are that's where you learn the stuff that are gonna propel you to success in the future. And so I think um it's important for people to to really understand that you you really need hardship. It's like it's like when you go to the gym, right? And you lift weights. And if if you're you're not getting any resistance, you're not building any muscle. And it's it's kind of similar with with hardship. You you have to go through those types of things in order to build the resilience and and the the life philosophy and everything that's required to be successful. So, you know, it's it's it's of course it's scary when you know there's okay, the market could be turning, or wow, this, you know, this this war is going on. I mean, all those things are terrifying. I'm not saying they're not, I'm just saying, you know, when when these types of things happen, it's it's less about what happens and more about the meaning you attach to it, because the meaning you attach to it's ultimately gonna influence the actions you take. And the actions you take are gonna influence the trajectory of your life. And I think you know, if if people can you know try to, I'm not saying be ungroundedly optimistic. You know, I'm not saying that I'm just saying we have to choose a belief system and a life philosophy that's gonna enable us to get the best possible results. We might as well choose one that that works, right? I mean, we can decide to believe whatever we want, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:42

So very valuable feedback, man. Very, very, very true. Though uh two things resonated when you were saying that. It's like um uh the resistance and stuff. Uh, this is a universal truth, too, right? There are no easy leadership moments, right? Because

There are no easy leadership moments

SPEAKER_00 27:57

the easy leadership moments don't develop you as a leader, right? Uh, if they're if they're easy, there's there's no no refining. You only get refined in the fire and trudging up the hill and falling back down here. That's when you get uh you get your skill set tested. And conversely, um uh there are no emotionally neutral leadership decisions, right? There are none. The moment as a leader you make a decision, there's you know, three different categories. Some are gonna approach it and be oh great, some are gonna cross their hands, stand on the sidelines, cross their arms, and prove that you're wrong, and the other is just gonna never never join whatsoever. And so there are no emotionally neutral leadership decisions. Uh, so don't think that you're gonna make a decision, everyone's just gonna get in behind you. You're gonna fight those battles on every everything you change, that's just what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

So yeah, and it's you know, hopefully you have the you can develop the type of culture where it's like people may not agree with everything that you do, but they still understand that you're operating and and you know, overall in everybody's best interest. And they they hopefully they trust that you're trying to balance the objectives of the the business with the objectives of the of the employees, and they you know, I it's it's in the company's best interest to have that alignment, but there are some times where it's like there's like certain decisions where it's like, okay, you have to toggle between this is how it's going to end uh impact people individually, this is how it's gonna impact the organization at scale. And sometimes there isn't the perfect answer that that fits both of those things, and then it really comes down to a leader's ability to communicate that and say, look, like these are kind of the options in front of us. We could go this path or this path. Ultimately, if we don't go the path of the business, then that potentially could impact our trajectory and the benefits and professional development and everything that we can offer. So, you know, I 100% understand, I hear you, I I get it, I really do. I'm listening. And also, this is still kind of what we have to just, you know, this is the decision we have to make in order to get to the next level so we can at that point hopefully be able to prioritize what you're looking for. So, so sometimes you're right, it's it's not, it's never like a situation which you can make a decision that's not gonna, you know, make it necessarily agree with everybody, but then it just comes down to can you communicate it in such a way where people still feel heard and respected and valued and all these types of things, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yep, yeah, we can agree to disagree, like you know, I have with other people above me and below me and whatever my career. I look, we we agree to disagree. I hear you, I'm not invalidating your concerns, but uh the decision is me based upon my title, and this is the decision I'm going, right? There's a seat for you on this bus, and I want you on this bus, but I'm driving the bus, right? Um this is how it is sometimes. And so those are those are conversations that get easier the more you've been doing it, right? Some leaders want to shy away from them, and admittedly they aren't easy, but the more you have practice at it, the better you get at it.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

That's the thing, you can't shy away from them because then you're never gonna get better at them. You have to. I mean, you know, I think that was probably the area I was most unequipped with when I initially had started my company because I so when I started my company, I initially I had a sales background, so I you know, I I got I started Secure Vision, I sold a bunch of stuff. We quickly went to around you know 650,000 in revenue, and then I had to go out and hire people and I had never managed before, right? Um, and so that was a huge learning curve. And I quickly realized I was like, I was failing at it. I I don't know what I expected, but I you know it's a it's a it's a skill set that takes time to develop. You really have to learn how to communicate high expectations, high empathy at the same time. You need to know you have to be situational. There's so there's so much nuance to

Transitioning from trial-and-error to experienced leadership

SPEAKER_01 31:31

to being good at it, right? So fortunately, I hired an executive coach uh that that really started to to to help me, and it was it was so bad at first. I felt like I had to talk to him before I have anything.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

But you know, I look back, it's funny. It's like I look at employees like the first year I was in business and I was like, Oh, I feel bad. I'm like, uh, I'm sorry, you had to work with me the my first year as a manager. Uh like the people now they have it good, hopefully, right? I think you know, I I figured it out. Uh, but yeah, it took it took me personally, like I'll just be honest and just like you know, say it like it took me a few years to to get good at those conversations. Fortunately, though, I guess for better or for worse, I had them. I would always have them. I did the trial and error. Uh, I probably at first I didn't always provide the best experience for the people on the team because I was I was learning it was trial and error. Um, but you know, you you learn and you get better throughout your career. And unfortunately, if as long as you're committed to improving and having those conversations, it's it does get a lot easier. And now it's at this point, it's it's really just I I know I'm I'm I feel very you know very good about being able to communicate our decisions in a way that that that people will understand. And and you know, even if it's not like their ideal answer, it's like everybody feels like understood and they understand why the decision's being made and they understand that it's ultimately in our best interest, right? Because it's gonna create the most opportunity for the company, which is gonna impact everybody, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah, that's what experience gives us, right? Like what you just went through your first two or three years, right? It's uh learn by trial and error, but now it's experience. So you stand on those blocks and you've got that experience. Someone else can learn from you. So yeah, agreed. Also, I uh uh we are aligned there because I really saw great professional development. Uh when I went to a coach, this is in the 90s, man, when you did it on the phone for an hour every Thursday or whatever. And I spent two and a half years at the feet of uh um Michael Gerber, uh the eMyth, why most business at work when he was getting started, and I learned so much. He grew so big, I ended up working with other folks in his organization, transformed how I think about business. Um, admittedly, I was uh, for some strange reason really adverse or shied away from uh argumentative and confrontational conversations because I didn't see any value in them. But then all of a sudden, if you get labeled a weak knee, um spineless kind of leader, then you have no authority. So sometimes you just have to slip in that suit, right? That Teflon suit that allows you to deliver the bad news, direct news, confirm about it, um, but you don't have to destroy the person, right? So, yeah, we've all uh no man is an island, every man's had help from someone, and it sounds like we've we've gone a similar path, right? Realizing we have deficiencies and shortcomings that we want to enhance because

The importance of investing in executive coaching

SPEAKER_00 34:11

we want to be better leaders, so yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

And I'd be as aggressive, and this is probably I don't know if everybody would agree with us. Um, I don't know if you'll agree with it, but um, I I I would go as far as to recommend that your first few years in leadership or your first years starting a business, you should be paying your advisors more than you're paying yourself.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Valid point.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Like, I you know, that was one of the best decisions I ever made. I, you know, when I started my company, I was paying on monthly retainers multiple advisors. Um, because I was like, you know, like okay, they've been doing this for years, and that did that didn't mean that I always figured it out, or like you know, and sometimes you get the advisor that's not the right fit and you go through that motion of figuring out how to get the right people. But um, I would say like it's not just about for business owners, I think it's also for uh people that are just really, you know, professionally ambitious. Like you should if you get to the point where you're making 100k salary or more than that, if you can just commit to keeping your lifestyle where it's at, right and you can commit to investing a few thousand bucks a month in yourself, it's it's ultimately investing in executive coaching and advisors is probably gonna have a greater return than investing in the stock market for you. Like if you literally just focus on putting that investment, just like you would think about compounding interest in the stock market over a period of 30 years, the same principle I feel like holds true to your own professional development, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Absolutely agrees. Look, every great every great athlete has a team of uh uh uh psychological, psychiatric, uh, um food coaches, swing coaches, stock coaches, right, dribble coaches. Um, and you can make the argument, yeah, but they can afford it. Well, you you have to start somewhere, so get the ones you can. You just need someone to challenge you and not be a yes person, right? To to push you when you want to stand still and to pull you when you want to sit down, right? So and give them that permission. So, yeah, absolutely. And some of the best investments and agree with you that we made is uh continuing to invest in yourself, and that means external resources to help you along a lot of times.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Right, yeah. It's uh it's definitely, I mean, you have to have that. I think there's um so so Peter Teal, who is the um I one of the co-founders over at PayPal, and he has this book called uh Zero to One, uh, which I highly recommend, by the way. I have you have you read it?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

I have the book, I have not read every page, so I'm going to say no. I've read the cover and the front.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

So right, yeah, it's uh it's really good. It's uh I have it on audiobook. I've listened to it uh a couple times. Um and um one of one of the concepts he talks about is like there's basically he kind of breaks people into four categories. So obviously, like oversimplification, but it's still helpful. Like, you know, there talks about, you know, I forget what the bottom two are, but like there's two different types of like pessimists essentially. The point that really interests me was like more of like there's two different types of optimists, right? And he basically said that there's one type of optimism that's helpful, and there's another one that's useless. And he says, like, there, you know, there's a certain optimist that's like an ungrounded optimist, like somebody who just expects the future to be better. Oh, it'll work out. Like, oh, I'm just you know, I'm gonna all I'm gonna do is just you know, think things will work and stuff out, the future is gonna be better. Like he just says that that's obviously ridiculous. Like, you're not going to create the things in your life that you want to uh by just you know just thinking, okay, it's all gonna work out. Um, he said there's another type of optimism where it's like a grounded optimism where you know if I work hard and I work smart and I pull in the right resources, the future is gonna be better than today. And and I I always like really, you know, that's that gets back to the professional development and and seeking out uh advisors and and people similar to yourself that have been through it and and have built businesses. It's it's it's it's being able to understand that okay, if I if I if I seek out these individuals, maybe not everyone's gonna be open to helping, right? But there's gonna be a segment of the people that I reach out to that will be. And and and and that's gonna allow you, it's not just about working hard, it's also about having the right strategies.

unknown 38:04

True.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Right. And and and I think that that's that's what really resonates to me about what you what you're what you've been saying and some of the advice you've been given today.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

It's good stuff, man. I I've enjoyed it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah, this is fun. And I I know we're um, you know, we're coming up on on time here. Um, so you know, I just want to say like it, it's it's been an absolute blast. And you know, thank you so much for for coming on the show. And if you're open to it, we'd love to have you back on whenever, you know, whenever you want to. If you got it, you know, a new book coming out or whatever it might be, just definitely let us know and we'd love to have you back on.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Awesome, James. Honestly, thank you so much for the invitation. I've thoroughly enjoyed it and would love to be back on.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Good stuff. And and so by the way, if if people want to find you, could you could you tell us where they can find you online

How to contact Jeff

SPEAKER_01 38:46

and maybe you could tell us the titles of of your books, just so I want to make sure that people are able to engage with you and find you.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah, perfect. So the easiest is my personal website. It's jefarnold.com, J-E-F-F-A-R-N-O-L-D.com. Uh, all kinds of publications there for free. And five of my books are there. Um, but if you subscribe, we don't spam. If you subscribe to my newsletter, we just put thought stuff out umce a month. And then we have a publication called the the Arizona 100 that's really just good facts about leadership and stuff around Arizona. You can apply it to any state you're in. But uh the the best place, love to connect with you on LinkedIn, but you can get started with me at jeffarnold.com.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Okay, good, good to know. Thank you. And and for everybody tuning in, thank you so much, and we'll see you next time. Take care.